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| To The States And The People: Stop The Madness in forum [Market-Ticker]
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Tesla
Posts: 15541
Incept: 2008-04-03
State of Disbelief
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I'm going to get busy sending this to my local sheriffs and AGs and state Governors of the two states where I own property.
Maybe the local courts will be smarter or more honest than the federal courts.
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"Even a dog knows the difference between being stumbled over and being kicked." -Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes
"Neither the wisest Constitution nor the wisest laws will secure the liberty and happiness of a people whose manners are universally corrupt." -Samuel Adams
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Gillianx
Posts: 65
Incept: 2010-01-07
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Karl, good luck with this. I'd love to be proven wrong and that Americans will do something about the TBTF banks usurping the laws of the land but I think that type of American is only in the history books now.
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Sharon
Posts: 4352
Incept: 2008-02-10
Odessa, Missouri
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bilge
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Semper ubi sub ubi.
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Genesis
Posts: 130658
Incept: 2007-06-26
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No, the proper word is "avoidable". That's the correct word - it means being able to "avoid" having the debt (in this case) stick to you.
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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb. What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
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Sangell
Posts: 379
Incept: 2009-08-16
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What has always disturbed me about this issue is the appraisal issue. Most people buying a home ( especially for the first time or if they are moving from another town) are not familiar with the local real estate market. They rely, in large part, on the banks superior knowledge of property values, its appraisal of the property and willingness to loan against the collateral value of that property to ensure they are not paying too much.
I might go to a used car dealer and have the salesman convince me that a 2001 Crown Victoria is worth $20,000 and be willing to pay that but when I go to my bank for an auto loan he is not going to loan me that much money for that car. He will tell me that he is only willing to loan me its fair market value no matter what my FICO score maybe.
This is what broke down during the bubble years. As KD notes the loans were not made to be paid back. Appraisers were pressured to boost their appraisals or get no more work and, of course, once a few overpriced properties were sold on the basis of liar, no doc, Alt A, teaser ARMS etc, they had 'comparables' to justify the ever larger appraisal. But the banker KNEW those loans were no good and thus using sales financed by this kind of financing to establish market value was a disaster waiting to happen.
There ought to be a law.
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Wis/min
Posts: 5361
Incept: 2009-08-14
On the border
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Karl, this makes too much sense to be adopted and it would take years to unravel this banksters created mess but I agree it must be done if we are to remain a nation where the rule of law governs.
I talk to people about this and their eyes glaze over.
They just don't want to believe it could possibly be as bad as it is.
I suspect there will be an attempt to paper over the problem with new laws but it is my hope that state attorneys general will step to the plate and get it right.
If not, we are so screwed.
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Genesis
Posts: 130658
Incept: 2007-06-26
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Sangell, there is a law.
There is also the UCC and The Uniform Fraudulent Transfer Act.
A loan made to someone who the lender knows or has reason to believe cannot pay is avoidable due to fraud in the inducement.
Settled stuff here.
I suspect the real bottom line behind all this foreclosuregate crap is that if the banks are forced to produce the paperwork they'll lose on this basis, and wind up with no enforcement. Yes, the homeowner gets evicted but his credit is undamaged and the bank eats the **** sandwich.
That would destroy all of them, and they know it.
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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb. What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
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Spartacus
Posts: 343
Incept: 2007-11-08
Banned
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Evicted by whom? If the mortgage fails who then has a superior possessory right?
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America -- A case study in social pathology. It's a travesty of a mockery of a sham of a mockery of a travesty of two mockeries of a sham.
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Gillianx
Posts: 65
Incept: 2010-01-07
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Bernanke is now looking into it...so don't you all go worrying your pretty little heads.
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Jwm_in_sb
Posts: 1034
Incept: 2009-04-16
California Desert
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"That would destroy all of them, and they know it."
And it will. Why? Because the employment situation is not getting any better and there are going to be more who have no choice but to ruthlessly default. The cashflow is not going to improve...it will get worse.
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Genesis
Posts: 130658
Incept: 2007-06-26
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Spart, if you void the loan then the transfer is void too. Since the previous owner got paid in full he has no right of possession. Neither do you, as you no longer gave value.
The bank gets the house. But they also get the entirety of the **** sandwich, they can't pursue a deficiency judgment as the transaction is avoided (as if it never happened legally) and they're stuck with the entire loss.
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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb. What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
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Spartacus
Posts: 343
Incept: 2007-11-08
Banned
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The transfer should still be valid, the prior homeowner committed no fraud. It's the loan that may be voidable and therefore the mortgage that was granted in consideration thereof. But, the homeowner is still record owner.
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America -- A case study in social pathology. It's a travesty of a mockery of a sham of a mockery of a travesty of two mockeries of a sham.
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Genesis
Posts: 130658
Incept: 2007-06-26
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Courts in the US are both courts of equity and law.
That line won't work; you'll lose on the equity argument. The bank will get the house but you will be avoided of the debt, and perhaps they will be forced to refund all your payments (which might not suck!)
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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb. What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
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Etz
Posts: 13886
Incept: 2007-06-26
LA
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Legal chicanery and beneficent darkness are the banker's stoutest allies - F.Pecora.
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2dogs
Posts: 2931
Incept: 2009-03-25
Land of the Lost
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Quote:Appraisers were pressured to boost their appraisals or get no more work... Meanwhile, our local (IL) Township Assessor refuses to reduce tax assessments based on appraised values because according to the Assessor's Office, lender appraisals are low-ball estimates of fair market value. They're supposedly deliberately undervalued to protect lenders.  You do NOT want to live in Illinois.
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You can't defeat the combined effects of massive voter fraud, the Free **** Army, and the entire bought and paid for media complex. This nation is done.
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Genesis
Posts: 130658
Incept: 2007-06-26
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How about this to the Chicago Fed: 
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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb. What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
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Wis/min
Posts: 5361
Incept: 2009-08-14
On the border
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Is the Bair announcement a trial balloon indicating they intend to come up with a "solution"?
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2dogs
Posts: 2931
Incept: 2009-03-25
Land of the Lost
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From the report at the Chicago Fed link: Quote:Convening Experts to Develop the Right Policy Responses Is that a ****ing joke? The 'right policy response' is handcuffs and clawbacks.
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You can't defeat the combined effects of massive voter fraud, the Free **** Army, and the entire bought and paid for media complex. This nation is done.
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Spartacus
Posts: 343
Incept: 2007-11-08
Banned
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Gen, I think you're wrong here and it opens up a can of worms. This is not a seller financed transaction where you can simply undo the deal. The original homeowner sold the property, got paid, and transferred title. The bank never had title ... now the mortgage is gone and the loan obligation is voided. The bank has no legal theory left upon which to proceed. Talking about equity ... the bank is the party with 'unclean hands'.
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America -- A case study in social pathology. It's a travesty of a mockery of a sham of a mockery of a travesty of two mockeries of a sham.
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Ostriches
Posts: 261
Incept: 2009-10-28
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Sorry, but I don't care if the dwellings are put into escrow, or whatever - these people need to get out if they are not paying.
And, I don't care if they were sold a pile of crap by the banks, they failed to do their due diligence and were all Gung Ho to jump on the property ladder and **** someone else in order to make a ****load of money to buy a new BWM/Mercedes or to pay for their constantly stroked kids to go to some high priced college, or their well-heeled retirement on a golf.
And, as for fairness - what of the people who avoided this **** like the plague? Along this line, what happens to renters when they lose their job and don't pay their rent? No one gives a **** about renters, but "homeowners," God forbid, we as a society just cannot allow THEM to get "thrown out in the street!"
Get them out, let the banks their system of power, control, corruption and abuse die a fantastic death, and let us get to work building a newer and better system based on sound principles and true fairness.
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Dmm219
Posts: 320
Incept: 2009-08-14
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Good luck on finding out where your local Sheriff's candidates stand on this. The election is 2 weeks away and neither candidate will talk about this issue and even give a hint on where they stand for it. They probably know there is no upside to making their position known and figure they can slide under the radar and ride it out.
I have been trying to for two weeks to find out where my candidates stand...neither have responded. Therefore, I have no idea who to vote for...and i figure this is more common than not...
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Genesis
Posts: 130658
Incept: 2007-06-26
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Nope Spartacus.
If the loan is avoided then you gave no value. The seller got full value.
You thus have no money interest and nether does the seller. The only party remaining with interest is the funding source.
There's no "danger" in this position from a position or law or equity, as you are not forced to avoid the loan; that's elective (on your part.) If you do avoid it then you're released from its terms and there is no damage to your credit. The court would then look to the principles of equity, since under the law it does not have an answer - you have no contractual right to the deed since you never conveyed value if the loan is avoided (from a legal perspective it is as if it never funded) and neither does the seller since he was paid in full.
The only entity left with financial standing is the lender.
I can't come up with a legal theory under which this goes any other way.
In practice what is likely to happen if you avoid the loan is that the losses would be so massive to the bank that they'd be very interested in negotiating a new, good-faith loan with you at the current property value, as at minimum this saves them legal, rehabilitation and sale expenses. Those are running about $50k/property, so for them to negotiate a new 30 year fixed loan for you at prevailing rates for the current FMV of the property - assuming you have income and can service it (that is, you don't violate the fraud-in-the-inducement issue AGAIN with the new loan!) is going to be the best path forward for both them and you.
Absent that (e.g. you're unemployed and can't qualify under reasonable underwriting guidelines even at the current FMV) then they get the house and you walk free and clear.
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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb. What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
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Sleepycpa
Posts: 674
Incept: 2010-04-01
East of the Cascades
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Quote: you have no contractual right to the deed since you never conveyed value if the loan is avoided I'm trying to wrap brain around this. What about my 30% down payment (I know, how dumb was I!)
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I used to believe my sig line.
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
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Genesis
Posts: 130658
Incept: 2007-06-26
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If you're underwater it's gone. If you're not underwater you're not going to want to avoid the loan.
You could try to sue on the fraud in the inducement for it.
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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb. What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
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