Expanding On Pensions, Annuities And Similar - Longwaves
The Market Ticker ® - Commentary on The Capital Markets
Posted 2010-09-30 08:03
by Karl Denninger
in Macro Factors
Ignore this thread
Expanding On Pensions, Annuities And Similar - Longwaves
 

To expand on what Bill Gross had to say about valuations, which I pointed out yesterday, I wanted to bring out a rather ugly little table showing decades from 1930 - 2000.  The "Growth" number is the average annualized rate of return over that decade.

   Decade            Start             End   Growth
1930 21.2 12.1 -5%
1940 12.1 16.7 3%
1950 16.7 59.9 14%
1960 59.9 85.02 4%
1970 85.02 105.75 2%
1980 105.75 359.68 13%
1990 359.68 1469.25 15%
2000 1469.25 1116.56 -3%

This is the S&P 500, with the start being at the beginning of the decade, so it covers through 2009 (last decade 2000-2009)

Notice something important - there's only been one other negative decade - the 1930s.

But when it occurred, the next decade was sub-par.

In addition, after the "burst" higher in the 1950s, there were two more decades of sub-par returns.

Why?

Simple: Kondratiev Cycles - that is, "longwave" cycles, which approximate one human life, or 80 years.

And interestingly enough, this is an 80 year period.

What do we learn from this?

We can divide long-wave cycles into four parts: Spring (yellow), Summer (green), Fall (brown) and Winter (white)

Kondratiev by genesis

During the spring you come out of the negative zone and into the positive.  Growth spurts toward the end of spring, but it is not lasting at a high rate.  That is, you can make money on speculation in Spring, but it is fleeting and easy to overstay your welcome, and find yourself holding something that returns nearly nothing.  Bubbles are rare during the Spring; rather, Spring tends to be the decades of innovation and industry.

Summer is characterized by steady and slow growth. A good time for productive enterprise, and a time when returns in that sort of enterprise will trounce speculative endeavors.  The innovations of the Spring are put to work and built upon - they find practical application in everyday life.

Fall is characterized by speculative manias.  Returns on "risky assets" (stocks) tend to be very strong during this period of time, and frequently beat productive endeavors.  Fall is bubble season, where the innovations of spring and the production of summer is turned into hype.  While innovation does occur during a mania, the value attached to such innovations tends to be unsupportable.  This continues until.....

Winter, when returns are (again) negative as the excesses of the Bubble Season are inexorably forced out - despite attempts to prevent it from happening.

Remember, these returns are all before inflation - that is, not adjusted.  Adjusted for inflation, the negative times are at least as bad as the positive are good, and the summer is close to flat.

Therefore, you want to speculate in The Fall.  Each generation will typically get one "Fall" in which to speculate.  The rest of the time speculation is, to be blunt, a spectacularly bad idea.

You want to innovate in the Spring.  New technologies - not incremental advances, true breakthroughs - happen in the Spring.  The Transistor, for example.

And finally, you want to build industry on those innovations - real industries that have staying power, not speculative crap like "Pets 2.0" - in the Summer.  Integrated Circuits and Microprocessors, for example.

The boundaries for the four seasons are not exactly on the decades, of course; I'd argue, for example, that the real point where "Fall" began was around 1982 or 1983.  But this is close enough.

It also points out the folly, however, that anyone who believes we're going to see high returns in the Stock Market any time soon is engaged in.

In point of fact, it is likely that it will be SIXTY YEARS before we see another sustained period like we did in the 1980s and 1990s; there may be one decade of opportunity before then, but it is very unlikely to be this one - or the next.

This has grave implications for pension funds, annuities (e.g. insurance firms) and anyone else who is now "Behind the 8-ball."  If you chase in this environment, looking for the "20% years", the odds are against you succeeding and will be for the next two decades.

You simply must recalibrate your expectations, and so must our government and other officials.  These cycles - long-wave cycles - are predicated on human lifetimes and we can actually chart them going back hundreds of years.  Tulip Mania was a Kondratiev Autumn, as were the "Roaring 20s." 

But just as we cannot prevent winter from following autumn in the annual seasons, we cannot prevent the cycles that are predicated on longer timeframes from playing out.  Even Alan Greenspan knew of this, and was known to have commented that he was trying to cheat what he knew was Kondratiev Winter in 2003.  To be blunt: He failed - the 2000 decade had a negative return despite his interference - and he sure as hell tried.  Many thought he succeeded and Kondratiev had been repudiated - right up until 2008.

Don't be fools folks.  There will be many who will continue to try to tell you that "this time it's different."

If they're right, it will be the first time in hundreds of years.

I'll take the other side of that bet.

Discussion below (registration required to post)
 

Main Navigation
Full-Text Search & Archives
Archive Access
Get Adobe Flash player





Blogtalk 3:30 CT Mondays
Items To Look At


Discuss The Capital Markets along with daily technical analysis with our Gold Donor program.

Where We Are, Where We're Heading (2013) - The annual 2013 Ticker

Links and Blogroll
Our policy on reciprocal links: Send us an email with your information and why you think your blog or news site would make a good addition - in most cases reciprocal link requests will be granted.
Seeking Alpha Certified
Legal Disclaimer

The content on this site is provided without any warranty, express or implied. All opinions expressed on this site are those of the author and may contain errors or omissions.

NO MATERIAL HERE CONSTITUTES "INVESTMENT ADVICE" NOR IS IT A RECOMMENDATION TO BUY OR SELL ANY FINANCIAL INSTRUMENT, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO STOCKS, OPTIONS, BONDS OR FUTURES.

The author may have a position in any company or security mentioned herein. Actions you undertake as a consequence of any analysis, opinion or advertisement on this site are your sole responsibility.

Looking for "The Best of Market Ticker"? Check out
Ticker Classics.

Visit the forum to discuss this and other investing-related topics; see the FAQ on the forum for information about Gold Donor status including access to our technical analysis video server.

Market charts, when present, used with permission of TD Ameritrade/ThinkOrSwim Inc. Neither TD Ameritrade or ThinkOrSwim have reviewed, approved or disapproved any content herein.

Market Ticker content may be reproduced or excerpted online provided full attribution is given and the original article source is linked to. Please contact Karl Denninger for reprint permission in other media.

Submissions may be sent "over the transom" to The Editor at any time. To be considered for publication your submission must include full and correct contact information and be related to an economic or political matter of the day. All submissions become the property of The Market Ticker.

Leads on stories of current economic and political interest are always welcome. Our fax tip line is 850-897-9364; please include contact information with your transmission.

 
Comments.......
User: Not logged on
Login Register Top Blog Top Blog Topics FAQ
Showing Page 1 of 2  First12Last
User Info Expanding On Pensions, Annuities And Similar - Longwaves in forum [Market-Ticker]
Bigsapper
Posts: 2471
Incept: 2010-06-25
Silver
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Thanks, Genesis. Good followup to my other readings on Kondratiev seasons.
Randy123
Posts: 5780
Incept: 2008-09-24
Green
Earth
Online
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Cool tick

----------
China is the Enemy. Wake Up.

New Normal. Same As The Old Awful.
Yaldor
Posts: 2687
Incept: 2008-05-17

Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Brilliant.

Fits what we have discussed before on not being any really new invention in the 2000s that did not exist before in the 1990s (and some roots in the 80s).

(That is other than Amazon kindle of course and the I-Fem phone. Just kidding.)

----------
For every crash the probability of someone showing that he predicted it is near 1 .

For every prediction of an imminent crash the probability of it being correct is almost zero
Chris11
Posts: 511
Incept: 2008-02-09
Green
Germany
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
From the Europe perspective we knew what followed the last Kondratiev winter. Hope that this time they do not pull a world war off.
In Germany in 1923 they had to use rotary presses, the ones you print newspaper on, to print the money. All insurance and pension funds went to zero. That set the stage for WWII.
Randy123
Posts: 5780
Incept: 2008-09-24
Green
Earth
Online
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
So we have another 10 years of slog ahead. Get a beer peeps.

----------
China is the Enemy. Wake Up.

New Normal. Same As The Old Awful.
Blargerz
Posts: 20
Incept: 2010-03-10

Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
So this should work from 1990-1920, 1980-1910 and so on... anyone have a link to this data?
Aliveh
Posts: 4043
Incept: 2008-01-18
Gold
Los Angeles
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
does this include dividend income?
Genesis
Posts: 130731
Incept: 2007-06-26
Admin A True American Patriot!
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Alive: No, price only. It also does not include inflation. (the parameters were clearly stated - did you read it?)

----------
I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me
Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb.
What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?

Cheese
Posts: 93
Incept: 2008-07-09
Green
wis
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
gotta tell the grandkids to lever up around 2060
Widgeon
Posts: 13481
Incept: 2007-08-30
Green
Region formerly known as the United States
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
In the "Decade of the 30's the Event that brought it down didn't occur until 1929 ... Now, our event didn't occur until oh say 2008. So, on a strictly time frame relationship the 2000's would be most comparable to the 1920's ... that is, the DECADE AFTER the triggering event was bad ... we are unusual at this moment because the 2000's actually came in negative; BEFORE the actual triggering event. Of course, it could be argued that the triggering event occurred in 2000.

Genesis
Posts: 130731
Incept: 2007-06-26
Admin A True American Patriot!
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
It did.

Greenspan is on the record as saying that he was fully-aware of Kondratiev cycles and believed he could avoid them.

Yes, "Maestro" believed he could change something driven by human nature that had been the case, despite all attempts to the contrary, for hundreds of years.

He also said - and knew - that if he failed, the damage would be much worse than if he had just left it alone.

----------
I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me
Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb.
What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?

Smacktle
Posts: 1361
Incept: 2009-01-20
Green
Texas
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
I get it now. Karl's crystal ball is math!

----------
The faults of the burglar are the qualities of the financier.
- George Bernard Shaw
Tesla
Posts: 15541
Incept: 2008-04-03
Green A True American Patriot!
State of Disbelief
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Unfortunately, that math crystal ball thingy doesn't come with a timeline service.

----------
"Even a dog knows the difference between being stumbled over and being kicked." -Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes

"Neither the wisest Constitution nor the wisest laws will secure the liberty and happiness of a people whose manners are universally corrupt." -Samuel Adams
Anti
Posts: 4292
Incept: 2007-10-09
Silver
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Kondratiev Cycles - I just checked the Wikipedia entry for them. I was remembering 47 years; they say 45 to 60. The same basic idea but the 80 year length is more correct and has been promoted by Generational Dynamics building on Fourth Turning ideas.

Good summary and explanation of its reflection in investing.

http://www.generationaldynamics.com/cgi-....

----------
Health is better than health insurance
http://gerson.org/
Over the past 60 years, thousands of people have used the Gerson Therapy to recover from so-called “incurable” diseases such as cancer, diabetes, heart disease and arthritis.
Weetabix
Posts: 8
Incept: 2010-07-28

Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
I imagine this is obvious to the old hands here, but what does one do, financially, to survive winter?

I'm thinking the obvious:
- stay out of debt
- spend less than you earn
- work harder than other people

Anything big I'm missing?
Genesis
Posts: 130731
Incept: 2007-06-26
Admin A True American Patriot!
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Anti, the length has gone up a bit as have life expectancies.

The basis behind these cycles is that the pain that comes causes such a shock that nobody will allow it to happen again in their lifetime. Therefore, until (statistically) all the people who got ****ed the last time are dead (or senile) it doesn't happen again. But then it does, because the human memory of it in real terms has been lost.

----------
I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me
Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb.
What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
Bagbalm
Posts: 4255
Incept: 2009-03-19
Green
Just North of Detroit
Online
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Why the hell do we even bother trying to teach history? It appears nobody applies it to their own lives.
Sloonie
Posts: 2109
Incept: 2008-04-16
Silver
waaaaay up North
Online
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
bagbalm wrote..
Why the hell do we even bother trying to teach history? It appears nobody applies it to their own lives.


Good question! Answer? Because hope springs eternal, as does the human ego, thinking that we can actually change the course of greater forces than ourselves.

Everything is cycles...waves....what a ride!

----------
"If might is right, then love has no place in the world. It may be so, it may be so. But I don't have the strength to live in a world like that..."-Father Gabriel, 'The Mission'


Leslie
Posts: 50
Incept: 2010-06-25

NoVa
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
But as is often noted on this blog, the USA is no longer a closed system. These cycles may hold true here, but how does one extrapolate this information to, say , emerging economies who weren’t experiencing the same generational dynamics during the 50s, 60s, and beyond?
Snowman
Posts: 1798
Incept: 2009-03-09
Green
avoiding yellow snow
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
taking inflation into account, observations are obvious, particularly 2000-20009:

Decade Growth Inflation
1930 -5% -1.77%
1940 3% 5.15%
1950 14% 2.11%
1960 4% 2.77%
1970 2% 7.85%
1980 13% 4.75%
1990 15% 2.81%
2000 -3% 2.48%
Genesis
Posts: 130731
Incept: 2007-06-26
Admin A True American Patriot!
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
As I pointed out Snow, during Fall you want to speculate like a bitch.

The rest of the time, you better not - except for a brief time in Spring, you will lose money trying it.

----------
I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me
Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb.
What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
Randy123
Posts: 5780
Incept: 2008-09-24
Green
Earth
Online
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
So I will be dead before the boom times return? Figures.

----------
China is the Enemy. Wake Up.

New Normal. Same As The Old Awful.
Genesis
Posts: 130731
Incept: 2007-06-26
Admin A True American Patriot!
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Yep. Each generation gets one shot at it.

----------
I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me
Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb.
What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
Randy123
Posts: 5780
Incept: 2008-09-24
Green
Earth
Online
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
I can live with that.

----------
China is the Enemy. Wake Up.

New Normal. Same As The Old Awful.
Login Register Top Blog Top Blog Topics FAQ
Showing Page 1 of 2  First12Last