2b|!2b:?:
I read your New Yorker link. The Kochs sound like genuine American heroes. Dare I say Randian, even.

what do you mean Fijiaaron?
Karl never said he advocated bringing down the rich. Or were you being facitious?

Yesterday evening, I sat down with my daughter to watch "Gone with the Wind." It's customary in our family to watch this movie in times of stress, illness, or heartbreak, and my daughter was recovering from a bad bout of food-poisoning. There's nothing like "Gone with the Wind" to put your personal troubles in perspective.

This was the first time I've ever watched this movie and been really frightened by it--by the idea that something like this could happen. The parts that got me were the scenes of a couple of acres of wounded men lying on the streets of Atlanta, the hospital scenes, and they mayhem as the city fell.

I'm afraid we'll have civil war in some form, if this country doesn't get its house in order.

Sharon - you need to read the book. It's a masterwork - I was stunned, to say the least, when I read it for the first time this summer (at the urging of my ex-yankee SIL, no less ;)

And yes, it puts things into perspective, big time, as does any knowledge of history ;)

Sharon wrote..

I can't help but wonder why people have put up with this as long as they have, why more people haven't looked for a way to "drop out," so to speak, and devote their lives to doing something they really believe in and value.

While there are lots of reasons for this, I think one very big reason is that no one knows what they really believe in and value, and they have very little idea about who they are and what they might want to do. This is mainly because of relentless programming--designed to tell us who we are and what we want to do, and what we should believe in and value.

It's just our DNA. Very few people are sufficiently self-aware to even think about or conceive of what they believe in. Most people are just tools of their DNA. This is where their programming comes from. It takes a lot of work to break free from that.

Spence yep.
I'm reading Richard Dawkins again
Been back and forth between 'The Selfish Gene' and 'The Blind WatchMaker'
Your point is stated by Dawkins
Our Genes are looking out to make sure our bodies "their machines" get themselves replicated and also protect those offspring with them including close relatives who share lots of same genes.
Also reading his book 'The God Delusion' all great books

Rickl wrote..

I read your New Yorker link. The Kochs sound like genuine American heroes. Dare I say Randian, even.

Do genuine heroes skulk in the shadows while pulling strings through a bunch of fronts? Sounds more like Cosa Nostra to me...

But my point wasn't so much the Kochs per se (though the whole Tea Party movement owes MUCH more to them than most of its members would care to realize.) I was talking more about the fake nature of the current "populist" anger, in general (be it fomented by the Kochs, by Murdoch, or whomever.) So many of the 'little people' raving against "the man", are actually being bankrolled and prodded by "the man" without even knowing it. One hardly knows whether to laugh or weep at all this marionette melodrama. (Though perhaps more than sad or funny, it is terrifying in its potential to become the new norm. Won't be the first time; Hearst was big back in the day -- and the more things change, the more they stay the same...)

If (when?) the time for real revolt arrives, things won't just be different; everything will feel fundamentally different. Until then, it's just the same old circus: throw out the bums; long live the New Bums. Randian, indeed.

Really though, to paraphrase W.: how many times must one be fooled, before resolving never to be fulled again? (The question is rhetorical; I know the answer: infinitely many, and a sucker is born every second.)

I can't speak for others, but I'm not raving against "the man". I'm raving against the Left, which has a murderous, blood-soaked history. I don't want to see that happen here.

I generally favor those who work to get oil out of the ground and refine it. They enhance and improve my life.

Rickl wrote..

I'm raving against the Left, which has a murderous, blood-soaked history. I don't want to see that happen here.

So does the Right (or should I say, Reich?) Personally, I care for neither Communists nor Fascists (and since I fully expect you to trot out the old Nazis = Socialists herring, I'll remind you about Franco, Mussolini, Hirohito, Pinochet et cetera, and when it comes to the Nazis let's not neglect Hitler's abiding fear and loathing of Communists, to the point of targeting them in the Holocaust right alongside the Jews, the Homosexuals, and the Gypsies...)

I will point out that most of what's decried as "Socialist" and "Left" today, was Conservative and Right back in the days of Reagan (though of course, still far from good enough for the Libertarians: I'll grant you that...) We haven't really moved much as a country, over the last 30 years (we're still running the same old tried-and-true Voodoo Economics.) What we have done, is become more politically polarized and ideologically poisoned. But I don't see that as a sign of progress: more like a pattern preventing us from engaging in meaningful discussion or consensus building -- and thereby, just another omen of impending system failure.

Nero fiddled while Rome burned; we're going to throw epithets at each other instead, on behalf of our respective billionaire puppeteers. But the end result is the same.

This makes me want to quit.

I need to think about it. I will talk it over with the wife. I might go GALT - heck I could file Bankruptcy, move back home, and file for food stamps. Go from paying in to drawing out - That would help break the system quicker.

I need to think about things.

Thanks Karl

Clay

Quote:

I will point out that most of what's decried as "Socialist" and "Left" today, was Conservative and Right back in the days of Reagan (though of course, still far from good enough for the Libertarians: I'll grant you that...) We haven't really moved much as a country, over the last 30 years (we're still running the same old tried-and-true Voodoo Economics.) What we have done, is become more politically polarized and ideologically poisoned. But I don't see that as a sign of progress: more like a pattern preventing us from engaging in meaningful discussion or consensus building -- and thereby, just another omen of impending system failure.

Was Reagan in favor of massive government?
Was Reagan for Nationalized Health Care?
Was Reagan Pro abortion?
Was Reagan Massive stimulus programs?
Was Reagan weak on defense?
Was Reagan an apologizing appeaser?

You must know a different Reagan.

For all the faults of the Republican party(and they are many)your distrotion of history is less than helpful.

Regarding the comment concerning a home grown Hitler, such a creature would require the support of the military to accrue the power as Hitler, and trust me, those of us in uniform read history just like everyone else. You would find a significant number of us actively resisting the ascendancy of such a figure.
I myself have upped my W-4 exemptions as much as I can while not being called to task for it (DoD is a bad place to claim 12 and not file), but unfortunately there isn't anything I can do about Social Security or Medicare.
Post retirement an all cash existence sounds about right, with my retirement (while it lasts) going into a credit union and promptly converted into something else.

How about Arnie?, he is Austrian after all

Quote:

I'm afraid we'll have civil war in some form, if this country doesn't get its house in order.

The reason it won't happen is the same reason you're posting here.

Nobody here would start a civil war and, as far as I'm concerned, this place is sample enough when it comes to the american public.

People here are not willing to give up their jobs to protest. Are they (we) gonna take guns and ammo to fight now? They won't risk their job but they'll risk their lives?

I remember back in the healthcare bill days that people in here essentially threatened that someone (not them) would take up arm and start to shoot was the health care bill to pass. There would be revolution and violence. This was, at the time, seriously considered.

Well? No gun shot breaking ma peace.

In short, right now, there is a lot of posturing but little intent to do something. This is why people talk gun but not strike or actual plan. When you posture (and plan on doing nothing) you gotta talk big, you got to project and conjure up powerful imagery, because projecting strengh is all that it's about. It's not about doing anything.

Violence in this country will not happen (for the wrong reasons) but it should not happen anyway.

Edit: For those you want to do something, I'm almost certain than more could be done for this country by organizing weekly community apolitical family meeting in the park than joining a tea party.

Normal people building a sense of community by having a good time together and becoming friends would be a much more powerful force than hundreds of people on a forum. It would automatically break the feelings of isolation and alienation we all have while simultaneously create a counter to the federal government without you having to do anything but having a good time with other people.

Communities that care about each other would be a formidable force.

+1000000 Excellent Ticker....

People are talking about making less money, living on less so that they're a supposedly net drain on the .gov and don't pay so much in taxes?

So the former leachf*cks are the new heroes.

Now I've heard it all.

The call is right (to not pay taxes or to starve the beast) but reality overrides such idealism for those of us who have kids. It is not as simple as reducing one's existence to a bear minimum to starve the beast because reality is that food must be put on the table and a roof kept over their children' heads.

Of course, the only way for this call to work is to do it en masse. It has to be all in if it is to work. Sort of like a money bomb the way the libertarian party did it with Ron Paul when he was running for the presidency.

And, by the way, it may sound good (in order to rally the troops) to say ALL members of Congress are corrupt or inept but that is not the case. Ron Paul has urged the right actions for decades only to be marginalized by the media. If Paul were in the White House rest assured most of the things you call for would be done. Most of these people would be in prison and this mighty ship we call America would be slowly turning.

Quote:

And, by the way, it may sound good (in order to rally the troops) to say ALL members of Congress are corrupt or inept but that is not the case. Ron Paul has urged the right actions for decades only to be marginalized by the media.

Please point me to the speech in which the paragraph I outlined was spoken.

You can't, because he never delivered it.

It's the Political Enablers who make the corruption and fraud possible, and it's the Voters who enable (elect) the Politicians.

A general strike for any length of time is impractical . . . .
A more workable solution is an across-the-board voting out of ALL incumbents (except the few honest politicians that are opposing the fraud). This would send a clear message that the People will no longer stand for widespread corruption. Those politicians not now up for election, and future candidates, would heed this threat to their future job security, and the issues that Karl is talking about would become front and center.

However, the key to Voting Out Incumbents is educating the public. Without understanding and knowledge, the People will not act. Here's where those of us who are more tuned into economics have to spread the word.

Karl's work is great for a particular audience, but the majority of the public needs a simpler message. That message is: Since 1970, the share of wealth of the top 5% in the US has gone from 30% to near 60%. The rest of us are getting progressively poorer and poorer. Are we just going to let the Financial Elite trample us under their feet, turning us into Debt Serfs?

My current plan is to sit outside my voting center all day on Election Day with a sign that says:

---- YOU are getting poorer, while the Big Banks and Wall Street are getting richer.

---- Who makes this possible? . . . the Politicians who support laws and regulations that favor the wealthy over YOU.


---- Don't be fooled by the labels "Republican" or "Democrat". ALL Politicians care more about the Financial Elite than YOU!

---- That's why YOU are getting poorer, while the Big Banks and Wall Street are getting richer.

---- Don't like it? Take back your Constitutional power and Vote Out ALL Incumbents !!

---- Let them know who's Boss now, and come next election the Politicians will represent YOU, not the Financial Elite.

Quote:

A general strike for any length of time is impractical . . . .

No it's not.

It's only impractical so long as you deem that "fixing the problem" requires that you make no sacrifice in the process.

Well, that's not possible.

Honorius, your message is a good one. A Jeffersonian approach is much desired but, unfortunately, it would be steamrolled by Big Government. The national media outlets would find a way to demonize or marginalize this type of movement and Big Government would pass laws to stop its spread.

Karl, Campaign For Liberty and Mises.org sends daily messages via articles and videos promulgating not just Paul's ideas but those who share a common vision. Though I will not get into a "he never said that" or "show me the speech" exchange I can assure you this Big Government Kleptocracy would cease to exist under Paul or a Paul-like administration.

So what laws could be enacted to prevent small business from shutting their doors for a few days or weeks? And if small businesses fire off press releases to their local news outlets en-mass, the regime might want to hush those up but unless the 1st amendment is revoked, word will get out to the public. The national MSM might slant the news but the local media much less likely.

Sharon, I haven't watched GWTW since last Christmas, but all during this time, a line from the movie plays back to me, Scarlett tells Ashley,
"how can you talk about .... when it is we who are being winnowed out!"

Rick1 said,

Quote:

I generally favor those who work to get oil out of the ground and refine it. They enhance and improve my life.

I absolutely agree. It is very sad that one of the most productive industries has been especially vilified.

In Europe, such questions "Why do you labor?" have often led to general strikes, the dissolution of governments and upheaval. There was a time such words were spoken here in America. Perhaps it is time to re-read Mother Jones' famous speech before striking coal miners. It is inspiring.

http://www.infoplease.com/t/hist/jones-c....