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You guys who want to argue for "Iran is ok"

Just to be clear here: I'm not. I think dickhead is a dickhead, I think that they are dangerous (though moreso to israel than to us), I think their whole ****ing religion are a bunch of professional mind****ers that get to start at birth molding people's thoughts, behavior and actions. (Though, to be honest, I think the same about most organized religions... Some just aren't quite as dangerous RIGHT NOW, though they have been in the past.)

But I'm not going to overreact about this just like I didn't overreact about NK.

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Most people just don't understand nuclear weapons are simply too easy to make and/or buy and the destructive potential of even a medium sized one is pretty much limited to one city... There are a ****load of cities in american and I feel like my odds of getting struck by lightning are much higher. We are EXTREMELY LUCKY that we haven't seen more of them used in the last few decades and I'll be even more surprised if we don't see them used in the next couple of decades. Obviously the damage they can do is huge, so don't get me wrong here, but the popular perception of "glassing over" a country is ridiculous.

The sense of security some people seem to have about this country is a WONDERFUL example of logic twisting perception manipulation - 1984 incarnate. If somebody can bring 10 tons of drugs in on a ****ing SUB, right into our major harbors, a nuke is no problem at all.

Oh I get it... I'm quite sure I could build one, if I had the raw materials, without scoring an "own goal." It's not that hard.

But I don't discount the willingness of someone motivated by religious fervor to do insane things - even things that would amount to suicide for themselves or even their nation. Religious nutballs are NOT rational people.

Tjeffersonsghost:

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Neo Con= New Conservative. Neo Con origins actually are quite communistic for the Neo Cons are for most of the things the red communists want like a police state here at home, the world police state, welfare state, death of rights, etc etc. Look at all the laws killing liberty, the nation building, and the welfare state enhancement under the "conservatives" under the Bush administration. Somewhere down the road conservatives lost their way and adopted the Neo Con ideology. So before calling me a flaming liberal you should probably understand that the so called conservatism of today IS actually just another face of communism/fascism. The liberals/democrats represent the other face of communism/fascism. Very few in government and talking heads in the media today actually believe in the Constitution.

No, I think the basic definition of a neocon is someone who was once a liberal or leftist and has changed their way of thinking and now considers themselves to be conservative.

I'm pretty much in that category except that I think of myself as more of a small-L libertarian than a conservative.

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Very few in government and talking heads in the media today actually believe in the Constitution.

That last part is extremely true, sad to say.

Look people, you either buy into the typical fear mongering FIX News War propaganda, send in the bombers, and destroy the economy with $300 crude oil prices, or else you think a bit more logically.

Bob Baer, former Middle East CIA station chief, says Iran is nowhere near ready to produce an atomic bomb. He's intelligent enough to realize that an attack on Iran right now would be disastrous for our country on multiple levels.

Nobody should take our media seriously anymore with respect to anything, let alone Iran. 60 Minutes interviewed Ahmedinijhad and conveniently left out the part in which he says he does not want to harm Israel and their people. After seeing that sort of manipulation, the MSM loses all credibility. They actually don't give a crap about anybody, let alone this country.

But go ahead, send in the bombers. Hope you guys have greater than 50 mile commutes.

Guess what TJG, I kinda agree with your your last premise but from a purely religious point of view. God will not let the Iran use a nuke unless His plan is ready to be fulfilled.

But be that as it may, I still believe in being proactive. You don't give a pyromaniac a can of gas and a lighter and tell him only use it to start a campfire so we can roast marshmallows, and then leave to go buy them while he takes care of the fire.

The radicals of the three major religions have gotten the world at each others throat.

Yes indeed radicals are a problem.

Brushyourteeth:
I don't take the media, or our political class, seriously.

I do take Islam seriously.

Iran DOESN'T have a nuclear weapon because the US is keeping a tight lid on who receives nuclear technology and who doesn't.
Pakistan DOES have a nuclear weapon and guess where they got the knowledge from ? They got it from the ....US !! There're a number of high ranking US officials who became rich by selling nuclear weapons to the highest bidder. And that was in this particular case Pakistan.

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All religious belief is irrational... irrationality is the enemy more than a particular religion. How many people have died because they think God the real estate broker left them the keys to a particular plot of land? Is thinking a certain diety is coming to earth crazy? Yes. So is thinking virgins can have babies, men can ascend bodily up to heaven, magic underwear can protect you, a prophet can ride to heaven and back on a donkey, etc... it's all equally insane.
We are doomed until humans get past this primitive superstition. Otherwise the destruction of our species is all but a foregone conclusion.

Thank you. Spot on, Stoverny.

Of course they will arm Iran - China and Russia like oil & money, just like the rest of us.

I'm reminded, reading dinner-jacket's words, (thanks pika) that it doesn't take long historically for religion to go from a reason in its own right to a matter of expediency. If you look at the medieval through renaissance leaders in Europe, you can see them couching things in a religious frame - sometimes in a very radical-sounding way. But the elites were always that 0.000001% of the population that was educated - I'm sure most of them viewed the use of such rhetoric with a healthy amount of cynicism.

The leaders of the Greek successor-states (Seleucid, Antigonid, Ptolmaic, etc) used to talk tough and run a few raids on the Galatians (the Gauls) on a regular basis pretty much so they could stamp a nice victory pattern on the new coinage to boast what heroes they were. Images of themselves wearing lion-skins as a pseudo-Heracles etc.

Beating up Israel verbally is sort of an obligatory "raid" if you want to establish yourself as a prospective leader of the Islamic/Arab bloc. Iran probably IS naturally the regional power. Not a US or USSR by any means, but a strong regional power. It COULD all be bluster. Get a little street cred basically for almost no cost. I really don't see them as a cat's-paw for Russia or China. They want to carve out their own niche.

That said, you can't threaten someone with violence and not expect them to respond. The threat is essentially equivalent to the actual deed. lol maybe there's a secret envoy telling the Israelis "Dude, our guy just needs some street cred - we don't mean it. Just be cool okay, please?" You can't blame the Israelis if they do something in response to the public threat - they can always point to public statements.

Personally I think the Iranians will, like everyone else, function on the basis of political expediency. Bravado fits into that too.

However IF THEY DID want to do some nuclear damage, their best bet would be to take out a carrier group with a nuke. As a purely military target with a zero civilian death toll, it's a good chance the US would not retaliate by nuking a city full of civilians... they'd just conventionally destroy every aqueduct, bridge, highway, reservoir, power plant, telephone exchange, library, police station, etc until they were back in the 600's. BC. And what have they really gained then? And that is the BEST cost-benefit exchange they can hope for on a nuclear-use basis.

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Brushyourteeth:
I don't take the media, or our political class, seriously.

I do take Islam seriously.

Posts such as these leave a lot to be desired. Do you mean that Islam is an evil religion?

Because I've got news for folks -- Islam is no more evil than Christianity.

Really, Karl, that is not like you. Leave it to our MSM to spin the fear stories and misguided agenda. It's only been a few years, but have you already forgotten the gap between 9/11 and the beginning of the gulf war II? Thar be lies! So many lies and innuendo that people went to jail because of it; but not enough, I might add, by a large margin. All the rats left the ship when the Iraq party got old and quagmired.

Vets don't forget, they know all the players of that charade. And when the usual suspects come back under the coat tails of another neo-con presidency, there will be some accounting.

A man has to know his limitations, Karl. Stick with finance.

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Really, Karl, that is not like you. Leave it to our MSM to spin the fear stories and misguided agenda. It's only been a few years, but have you already forgotten the gap between 9/11 and the beginning of the gulf war II? Thar be lies! So many lies and innuendo that people went to jail because of it; but not enough, I might add, by a large margin. All the rats left the ship when the Iraq party got old and quagmired.

This is what I cant figure out for the life of me. Our government JUST lied to us about going into Iraq and yet most are ready to just jump right back on board to go into Iran or Pakistan. There will ALWAYS be a reason to go to war. There will ALWAYS be propaganda feeding the people this reason. Religion is ALWAYS the best propaganda to use because so many people buy into it.

I say we do a 30% war tax and institute a draft and any politician who voted for the war must have a family member go join. If these really are justified wars we ALL should feel some pain.

Fox needs to pay their interpreters more. I am so glad Rupert wants to pull his content from the Google "thieves"

It will expedite the demise of the neo-con warmonger bull**** I have to put with from his media outlets.

He is no conservative.

Virtually everyone who runs that "Bush lied" meme fails to understand what the original intent of that invasion was.

Then again, he didn't disclose it. Or did he?

Well, if you were smart enough to figure out what he intended from what was said and done..... he did.

Anyway, that's off-topic. :)

Could it be that some of these religious people actually have scientific proof behind their beliefs? I mean if they have experienced something totally believable with their own eyes and senses why should they believe otherwise?

I mean please people, why do you think so many believe in one thing or another?

Perhaps there really are powers much greater than ours who influence us into thinking we are serving the actual "GOD"

But those who think religion should be abolished or made illegal are actually pushing their own agenda, that of a belief in nothing, that if allowed to become the majority would doom this world for sure.

Tjeffesonsghost,

I'm with you that we shouldn't attack Iran. But don't forget these words of Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini (from Wiki, but I understnd them to be accurate): "We do not worship Iran, we worship Allah. For patriotism is another name for paganism. I say let this land [Iran] burn. I say let this land go up in smoke, provided Islam emerges triumphant in the rest of the world." http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Ruhollah_Kh....

That's why I said earlier that while traditional Mutually Assured Destruction wouldn't necesssarily work with Iran, our best hope is that they understand that an attack on the US would be met with an attack on the foundational geography of Islam. You bomb a US City, we bomb Mecca and Medina and Qom and Karbala and Najaf... We should promise to retaliate where it matters to THEM. Unfortunately, it will probably take a major attack in the US before we have the will (if even then) to make such a threat. Is it immoral to threaten Iran with attacks on other countries? If it's the only way to keep lasting peace, it my be the only moral stance to have.

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Even Cheney wanted to use Navy SEALS to stage terror attacks on our own Navy...

The tin has arrived...

A problem belongs to who whoever's problem it is.

This is Israel's problem.

They are very effective at dealing with problems.

I have this fear of a missile launched off a tanker one day that sends us back to the 18th century. Some people effect of an EMP are overstated but it still concerns me.

An out-of-the-blue EMP attack is the ultimate in assymetrical warfare, and the ultimate nightmare scenario. The Iranians are not stupid, they know well that such an attack would utterly cripple us. We might not even know who hit us - all it takes is a few missiles launched from freighters in international waters off our coast, exploding outside the atmosphere (to magnify the effect), and we are dead as a nation. Katrina x 1,000.

I wonder how fast the world would come and help power up America and what they would want in return.

I don't know if we could be powered back up in time to make a difference. We'd have massive riots, starvation and civil strife within a couple weeks at most, followed quickly by the rapid spread of diseases that we can control easily now. Inside of a year we'd likely have 80% dead. What good is a USA of 60 million people in a world of 6 billion? Oh, maybe we'd nuke Iran and every other enemy (other than Russia and China - that'd bring death to most of the rest of us) that we've got, but that'd be rather small consolation.

Is such a scenario likely? No, but enemies seldom act as you think or want. It is a low probability, civilization-ending results event, for sure.

I'd recommend that everyone here read "One Second After" by William Fortschen. Here's a link to a review: http://spectator.org/archives/2009/05/01....

brushyourteeth wrote..

just because you get into an accident, go to the hospital, doze in and out of a coma on the operating table with a bright light shining into your eyes, it doesn't mean you've seen Jesus.

No. See you can't relate because you haven't experienced anything remotely like what those people have. But you simplify it into only what your mind can accept as "proof".

I have had something happen that proves there is a loving and just God. And I wasn't sick or drifting in and out of a coma. In my right mind, no drugs and with another witness. If you can't believe your own eyes and senses, then you really are crazy. That is if you are not crazy.

God (the one of the bible fame) is the one who controls this Earth whether you want to believe it or not. But to make fun of others because of a belief that only your understanding of how things work is right is very closed minded, akin to just what the "radicals" as you so aptly put it want to force "you" to believe.

The true Christian faith is NOT a religion. It's a way of life that practices no ill even towards enemies who would kill them. That however is not always the way we act because we are given to be emotional, and many have a false sense of moral high ground, which leads them to think they are better than everyone else especially you evil infidels. (that's a joke ;). And that is very unfortunate.

The most intelligent target a islamic could pick for a nuke would be one of their own major holy sites.

Nothing else would get the islamic world up in arms against the west. No better way to cause a religious war, no better way to convince every single islamic in the world that it was justified.

I don't really see it happening, but people rarely use logic to solve geopolitical issues.

Brushyourteeth:

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Because I've got news for folks -- Islam is no more evil than Christianity.

You're wrong. Very wrong.

Islam and Western civilization cannot coexist on the same planet, in the long run.

Personally, I'm not religious. I'm an agnostic. It's all about the culture.

asimov wrote..

The most intelligent target a islamic could pick for a nuke would be one of their own major holy sites.

Nothing else would get the islamic world up in arms against the west. No better way to cause a religious war, no better way to convince every single islamic in the world that it was justified.

I don't really see it happening, but people rarely use logic to solve geopolitical issues.

Dang Asimov, out of the mouth of babes. This is exactly what the Bible says will happen. It will go off in Syria. Did you know that or just think it up?

Danimal wrote:

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--- How about working on the Democracy here at home first and then get worked up about the land of a thousand kings and there BS. I for one am sick of it.---

I for TWO am sick of it. We have a complete and all encompassing assault on democracy as the Constitution and the Bill of Rights has a pernicious form of metastatic political cancer that is a threat from within. Constitutional and contract law are reeling from body blows that threaten our financial system, democracy, and our freedoms. The vaporization of good jobs, morals, main street, the middle class, individual responsibility, etc. is happening as we die due to exsanguination by a thousand cuts. I have seen the enemy and he is us, and I am beginning to embrace political atheism.

Hello folks---we are insolvent, we don't believe it, and that tragically, is not the worst of our problems.