When oh when will we collectively grow a pair?

>Therefore, if The Swiss Government is going to "step in", then the US Government needs to likewise "step in" and immediately revoke UBS' banking charter in The United States, as well as all their securities licenses.

>End of problem.

Yup.. Once that's done, then all of us can open an account with UBS in Switzerland and have fun. Our accounts will be fully protected by the full faith of the Swiss government

I'm in total agreement that Switzerland has every right to maintain banking privacy, and that the appropriate US response is to revoke UBS's charter.

IMHO, however, the US is carrying out a wrongheaded policy. First of all, it's stupid to try to levy income tax on Americans living and working abroad. In many cases, they're already paying local taxes as high or higher than US taxes, so all it does is add another hassle to living abroad. It also acts as a deterrent to American companies expanding their business outside the US. And finally, the hassles involved in complying with US rules has many foreign banks simply refusing to accept Americans as customers.

http://tickerforum.org/cgi-ticker/akcs-w....

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Therefore, if The Swiss Government is going to "step in", then the US Government needs to likewise "step in" and immediately revoke UBS' banking charter in The United States, as well as all their securities licenses.

End of problem.

Sums it up quite well you dont want to obey American law then you cant do business in America. To bad it wasnt this way with other American banks *cough*

By the time the our politicians finish completely ****ing up our economy we are all going to wish we had Swiss accounts.

@Parcontre

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First of all, it's stupid to try to levy income tax on Americans living and working abroad. In many cases, they're already paying local taxes as high or higher than US taxes, so all it does is add another hassle to living abroad.

The way I gather it most of these cases are American citizens living in America using Swiss banks to avoid taxes.

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It also acts as a deterrent to American companies expanding their business outside the US

I think American companies abroad should pay taxes. You realize when they spend American profits to expand their business over seas they dont have to pay taxes on that money effectively robbing our nation of billions. This has actually been a nice loophole that international corps have been using to pay little to no taxes. If we have to subsidize these guys then they need to pay taxes here and abroad.

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First of all, it's stupid to try to levy income tax on Americans living and working abroad. In many cases, they're already paying local taxes as high or higher than US taxes, so all it does is add another hassle to living abroad.

It may be stupid, but it's our law. Neither UBS nor the Swiss have the authority to change it -- only we do. Which of our other "stupid laws" will they ignore next? We've got this other silly law which forbids insider trading. UBS doesn't really need to obey that one too, do they?

Eh...UBS hasn't finished shredding and cleansing the records of the VIPs yet, including, I'm sure, a good share of US government folks. As soon as that's complete, I'm sure we'll see compliance by the Swiss. It's all a charade, IMHO. Dubai the next Switzerland?

I have worked for Silicon Valley companies (HW now SW) since the mid 90s although home base was - and still is - southeast Florida.

In the early employment with the arc that was Pyramid -> Siemens (various re-inventions) -> I left but the legacy rolled into Fujitsu. All this for HW historians.

Any, on frequent forays with the wife to San Jose she would look at houses which cost around 2X what ours did sq foot for sq foot. I also observed that most of my San Jose local peers commuted 1-2 hours just for "affordable" housing.

I don't know how they did it - or even do it to this day - house value crash to boot.

Pete

At the risk of being flamed, here it goes...

Karl, you're right that UBS should abide by a treaty.

But this makes my blood boil.

The US is way overreaching any kind of international legal authority by trying to dictate to sovereign states (states that have been sovereign longer than the US has) what they should and should not do. Switzerland has no choice in the matter, this sets a precedent that threatens the foundations of their economy. They cannot allow a breach of banking trust, for any country.

Let me pose this question; what will happen if this action by Switzerland serves to draw a line in the sand? The answer is simple. Every country in the world will just tell every US bank to 'p*ss off out of here and go home!'.

The BRICs are already pushing hard for this. It only takes (part of) Europe to follow suit and you can forget the US dollar. Obama has just p*ssed off Germany to no end, as a result of his recent visits.

In my opinion this is far more significant from a protectionist point of view than the 'buy American' legislation. The dominance of the US dollar is being questioned. The IRS and other US authorities are trying to assert their authority internationally, where they do not have any.

My personal opinion is that the international banking community should just pull out of the US, and close off their markets to all US banking (which would be a good thing, considering that these evil Wall Street b*stards are the ones who caused this financial meltdown), until the American government learns their lesson. It won't take long. Let Obama 'stimulize' to his heart's content.

When the dust clears, and the dollar is dirt, Americans can blame their power mad financial-government complex for the end result.

So what Uk?

If you want to do business in the US you follow US law. This is no different than someone wanting to do business in China, India, or for that matter Switzerland.

If I want to set up shop somewhere I follow their law or leave.

Period.

Yep, fully agree.

Personally I'm glad the Swiss have taken this action, as there's far too much propagandising that's inferring that it is perfectly acceptable to interfere with a Sovereign Nations Sovereignty.

It isn't acceptable at all, and in fact, to make it perfectly clear, it's an act of war.

eta: "considering that these evil Wall Street b*stards are the ones who caused this financial meltdown"

They aren't the ones who caused this financial meltdown, worse shenanigans (definitely in the EU but not exclusively so, and far from it), have been going on for far longer elsewhere.
While it is very convenient to 'scapegoat' the Americans for some people, the truth of the matter is the the USA was last to the party for asset stripping, and the final 'cherry on top of the cake' to be asset stripped.

These criminal practices have been going on Worldwide and blaming any individual Nation does not absolve any other Nation from regulatory supervision irresponsibility.

That our powers that be all around the World have been too concerned with thrusting their snouts as deeply as possible into the feeding frenzy at the trough, is hardly Wall Street's problem.

Karl, since when does any country have the right to access the personal financial (or other) records that are under the jurisdiction of another sovereign government? This is flat wrong.

There was a time when the US government couldn't even access the records of a sovereign state of the US, never mind another country. The US government just keeps pushing and pushing. Why doesn't the US allow the Courts of the Hague jurisdiction over international war crimes involving the US? Simple, because the US asserts is sovereign rights. There is no difference here; Switzerland has every right to tell the US to p*ss off.

(edit) Maybe the answer here is to make a fair trade: the us can have access to the account details of US citizens; and in return the International Bank of Settlements can have the right to audit the US Federal Reserve.

^ And the U.S. has every right to tell UBS not to do business here. They can change their slogan to "You and Us (but not U.S.)". Sovereignty works both ways.

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Karl, since when does any country have the right to access the personal financial (or other) records that are under the jurisdiction of another sovereign government? This is flat wrong.

Since the firm that holds the records applied for and received a license to operate its business inside the boundaries of the country in question.

UBS has no RIGHT to operate here. If they want the PRIVILEGE of doing business inside the United States they MUST comply with United States laws.

Yet I am sure that the US government already has all the details of all accounts that were created on American soil. The accounts that are in Switzerland were likely not created in the US or via a US agent. Therein lies the difference.

Sorry, nope.

Again, UBS can be required to comply with US Law everywhere it operates if it wants a license to operate its business here in the US.

That's a CHOICE. They want access to our markets and capital but don't want to play by our rules. **** that.

They're plenty welcome to give us the finger but we're plenty welcome to expel them from all banking and investment business inside the boundaries of The United States, including all access to our capital markets and securities exchanges.

I'll just bet that there are plenty of accounts with well known US citizen names that are just screaming to be disclosed.

Now if the US revokes UBS' charter, will said unnamed folk care? probably not - even more privacy, but UBS loses all legit US customers...I wonder which is worth more???

"UBS has no RIGHT to operate here. If they want the PRIVILEGE of doing business inside the United States they MUST comply with United States laws. "

Yep.

Sovereignty does indeed work both ways (and long may it remain so).

eta: The issue is UBS, not the Swiss Government (acting correctly), not the American Government (acting correctly).

You see, the American government should be pursuing it's citizens, not sovereign governments, for tax avoidance concerns.

Yes and Bernanke can buy up all the rest of the US Treasuries, when the rest of the world turns away.

IMHO, this is a very, very stupid thing for the US government to be doing at this point in time. The potential tax revenue, if any, will be negligible.

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Ukyank :"You see, the American government should be pursuing it's citizens"

They are.

It's UBS that's out of order.

Blah blah I wanna break the law.

Yeah whatever Uk. Sorry, but no.

There's nothing "stupid" about the rule of law. What's stupid is that we let it go for this long.

NO. Revoking UBS's charter is NOT the answer. Switzerland has been an accomplice in tax-cheating for decades. Enough. The U.S. should sever diplomatic ties with Switzerland and freeze all Swiss funds and transfers from the U.S. Knowing that Swiss vaults held Nazi loot for half a century and facilitated transactions that benefitted the Nazis, they should be universally viewed as a pariah, and treated accordingly. I'm not suggesting we nuke em, but I want them to know that they are our enemy, regardless of that pussy neutrality of theirs.