My screed on "Mark To Market" brought the tinfoil brigade out of the woodwork in spades, and one of their most common "attack points" is that "reserve banking is fraud."
Simply put, "no its not."
Let's prove it.
We'll set our temporal transporter to a world called "TimmyLand", where there are no banks but there is a very trusting government.
We show up and decide to establish a bank, being the only bank in the land. Since the government is very trusting, it does not require us to post any capital to do this - it simply takes our word for it that this is a good, safe and sound business.
Ok, so on the first day I open my doors to the world with no capital and nothing in my empty vault.
Joe walks in and being the trusting man he is, he deposits $100,000.
I now have a balance sheet that looks like this:
| Assets | Liabilities |
| $100,000 [cash] | ($100,000) [Joe, Deposit] |
Note that I have $100,000 in cash in the vault, and Joe has a piece of paper - a note - that makes him a creditor of my bank for $100,000 with no time-certainty (he didn't take a CD, he just deposited the money into a demand account.)
Now while this government is very trusting, they're not totally stupid. They demand that I keep a 10% reserve - that is, that I fractionally reserve at 10%.
So a few minutes after Joe comes in, Jane walks in and wants to buy a house. She has her eye on a nice $120,000 home and has $30,000 to put down, but doesn't have the rest.
That's no problem, says I. I do some investigation of Jane and find that she has a very good job, and its a very nice house. The one right down the street of the same size sold a month ago for $150,000, so the valuation looks pretty conservative. Jane must be a good negotiator besides. I make the loan @ 6%. Now my balance sheet looks like this:
| Assets | Liabilities |
| $10,000 [Cash] | ($100,000) [Joe, Deposit] |
| $90,000 [Mortgage, Jane, 6%] |
Notice that my net balance sheet has not changed. Yet.
But the seller of that house, Rich, doesn't want to sit on $90,000; someone might rob him! He comes into the bank and deposits it. Now my balance sheet looks like this:
| Assets | Liabilities |
| $10,000 [Cash, Joe] | ($100,000) [Joe, Deposit] |
| $90,000 [Mortgage, Jane, 6%] | ($90,000) [Rich, Deposit] |
| $90,000 [Cash, Rich] |
Now wait a minute, you protest! How the hell can you take $100,000 and turn it into $190,000? That's fraud you scream.
Uh, I didn't take $100,000 and turn it into $190,000. I took $100,000 and cycled it through my bank twice, leaving $100,000 cash in the bank and for the other $90,000 worth of liabilities, there is an equal value in assets. Both Joe and Rich loaned the bank their money which the bank in turn used in the first case to make a loan to Jane (and still has $81,000 in additional loan capacity which it will use to make another loan to someone else.)
Nor are Joe and Rich's loans to the bank "unsecured"; in fact if you examine banking laws you will find that depositors have a senior claim on all of the bank's assets, behind only the government's interest in redemption for circulation (that is, if the bank has a loan outstanding for currency to cash checks and the like.) The bondholders and others with interest in the bank are subordinate to depositors; the only get paid once the depositors do.
But, you protest, if Joe and Rich both come in and want their money at the same time, the bank doesn't have it!
True.
Does it matter?
No, and here's why.
Jane's mortgage has value. Provided I properly underwrote it, that paper is actually worth more than $90,000 - it is in fact likely worth 102 or 103% of "par", because there's a discounted cash flow in the form of interest payments and so long as the interest charged is higher than the inflation rate (or alternatively, the risk-free return I can obtain in, for example, Treasury bonds of equivalent duration) and the collateral protects against default that paper is in fact more valuable than its $90,000 face value.
So if Joe and Rich both come in at the same time and demand their money, I can sell Jane's mortgage to someone for the $90,000 face value plus a profit, pay both Joe and Rich, and (since I now have no money left in my bank) close my doors. No harm, no foul and no fraud.
(In reality if both Joe and Rich come in and want their cash at the same time I'm more likely to borrow against Jane's mortgage than sell it, but the fact remains that so long as Jane's mortgage plus my vault cash exceeds the value of deposit liabilities, the bank is fine - and there is no fraud.)
Can we dispense with the "fraud" claim now? I think so.
Ok, on to the meat of this thing - fractional reserve banking in general. We've established that it's not fraud to lend money, take a deposit of the money you lend after its spent, and lend part of that again. But wouldn't we have a "safer" economy if there was no fractional reserve banking?
Maybe. But would you want that system?
Let's go back to TimmyLand, the land with no banks, and set one up.
We're going to need a building; let's assume we can lease 3,000 square feet (a small bank) for $20/ft all-in (its not Class-A space, but it's reasonably decent.) That's $60,000 a year in leases.
We need three tellers, one branch manager and one loan officer. Figure $40,000 (all-in cost, including taxes, health insurance, etc) for the tellers, $60,000 for the branch manager and loan officer (heh, we're cheapskates!); that's $250,000 a year in labor.
We need computer gear to keep track of our books, and we need a long-term lease on a vault, since we're not open 24x7, utilities, and other sundries. Call that another $40,000 a year all-in.
We've got a gross operating cost of $350,000 a year.
Now let's assume we capitalize this bank with $5 million dollars of our hard-earned money (heh, I've got some cash, I'm gonna open a bank!)
What's a reasonable "return on investment" for those funds?
I would argue that 10% is reasonable. After all, if I invest in this business I could lose everything. I can get 5% tax-free in Munis, which on $5 million is somewhere around 8% or so taxable. Add a small premium for working 14 hour days (as opposed to the munis that leave me sipping Mai Tais by the pool all day) and 10% is actually quite low.
But this means I need to make $500,000 pretax, and I start with a deficit of $350,000 in operating expenses; ergo, I need to be able to gross $850,000 annually for this business venture to make sense.
Now let's assume I cannot fractionally reserve. That is, I can't loan out deposited funds (I must reserve them all), only those funds that I have as paid-in capital.
So I can loan out, at best, my $5 million dollars. Once.
I thus must make on that $5 million dollars $850,000 in interest charges to make this enterprise worthwhile.
That means that on average I must charge 17% interest, and this assumes that I never make a bad loan! If there's a bad loan here and there in the mix then the average interest rate must of course be high enough to cover that too. In all probability I need to charge an average rate of around 20%, net-on-net.
This means your mortgage rate is about 15%, car loans are 20% interest, credit cards are 30% (and not only when you don't pay either), and on and on and on.
That sucks, to be blunt. With those sorts of interest rates nobody's going to be borrowing anything, because they simply can't afford to.
But what if I can fractionally reserve?
Then it gets much better.
Let's take the $5 million and run it "to extinction" on a 10% fractional reserve system. In this case I can have around $50 million in loans outstanding at the maximum, but note that I still only need to make the same $850,000, because my capital at-risk is $5 million, not $50 million.
Now my average "net interest margin" must only be 1.7% to make a reasonable amount of money after charge-offs and similar events.
Heh, that's not so bad!
Now I can pay interest on deposits such as savings accounts and CDs, I can offer 6% home mortgages and 7 or 8% car loans. I can offer 10% credit cards. If I pay 2% in interest for the deposits that people place with me, my net interest margin on that mortgage is 4% - well into the safe zone - and this means that I can have a few loans go bad without going bust. I can thus take a bit more risk and do loans with 20% down instead of 30%, and perhaps not force you to prove six or 12 months of segregated cash reserves - just in case you lose your job.
In fact, if you think about this you'll quickly realize that banking in a fractional reserve system is a nicely profitable business - without doing anything dangerous at all.
Without using unreasonable leverage, without gaming the system, without any sort of nonsense I can make a very nice chunk of money.
But you know there is never a free lunch, right?
There is a cost to fractional reserve banking, and it comes from the law of exponents.
See, nobody will loan you money at less than the expected growth rate in the economy. They'd be nuts to; the law of basic business balance says that you can't get something for nothing. Remember, the banker has to pay his operating costs, and that money must come from you, the borrower.
So let's assume that the average economic growth is 3% annually. Let's further assume that the average loan is made at 6% annually.
Well, now we've got a problem; over 30 years $100 in "base economic output" turns into $243.
But over that same 30 years $100 in "interest expense" turns into $574!
It doesn't start out all that different. After five years its $116 for growth and $134 for interest. That's a difference of 16%. But over 30 years its nearly a double.
What this means is that over time the net percentage of output required to cover debt increases, all things being equal.
This is the mathematical principle of exponents, otherwise known as "compounding" in the investing and banking world.
Not all loans are productive. Some are made to do things like buy a machine that makes car parts, and as such the output gain from the machine grossly exceeds the interest cost. That productive investment, financed with debt, doesn't get the person who takes it out in trouble, because his personal growth in productivity exceeds the interest cost.
But some loans are made to finance consumption; the person who borrows to buy a bigscreen TV or a vacation as just two examples. There is no particular productivity increase in such a purchase.
As the "spread" between production and net interest expense rises, the economy falters. A higher and higher percentage of the loans ultimately cannot be paid back, even productive loans, because the net interest expense over time exceeds the productive gain of the person who takes them out. The presence of this ever-widening spread, which is inherently part and parcel of fractional reserve banking, means that recessions are necessary and more importantly, some people who have taken out loans and some people who made loans must, during those recessions, go bankrupt.
That is the purpose of a recession - to clear out the excess indebtedness along with excess capacity, resetting downward the "spread" between net interest expense and gross output (GDP).
This is mathematically necessary for any monetary system to remain stable in which fractional reserve lending is used. Should government attempt to prevent (or shorten) recessions by manipulating liquidity (that is, "make it better Joe!" when times get tough), or worse, try to "spend its way out" of a recession, preventing the imprudent or simply unlucky from going broke all that happens is that the system becomes more and more "backloaded" with excessive debt carrying costs that have not been cleared.
Eventually these costs overwhelm the ability of government - or anyone else - to paper them over and you get the sort of collapse we are seeing now.
The math always wins, and the more you stretch the rubber band the worse the snapback hurts.
Does this mean that we should get rid of fractional reserve banking?
Not necessarily.
There is nothing particularly wrong with it; it comes with both costs and benefits. Certainly, the ability of a farmer to borrow at 5% to plant his field, instead of at 20% (which he could not afford, and thus he would not plant all of his acreage) is tremendously to the weal and wealth of society. Certainly, the manufacturer who buys a machine with debt that produces toasters contributes to the benefit of society. And we, of course, like being able to buy houses and cars at reasonable interest rates.
But we must recognize that just as fractional reserve banking contributes to booms, it brings the necessity of busts.
Proper regulation of leverage and prudential standards for lending prevent those booms from getting out of control, and thus limit the ugliness of the busts - but make them inevitable at an earlier date.
That is, the benefit of reserve banking (the availability of credit on reasonable terms for a wide variety of purposes) comes with the cost that those who use credit to finance consumption ("pulling forward demand") or engage in speculation are likely to go broke during the inevitable busts; they are those who are in effect gambling with their use of credit and when the cyclicality catches up with them, they (and those who loaned to them) will be the ones who go under.
Our failure over the last 20 years is not found in the principle of reserve banking. It is, rather, found in the complete and utter refusal to accept the cyclicality that is a necessary component of reserve banking systems - to accept the costs that come with the benefits.
Instead of accepting these facts we have gamed the system in an attempt to prevent the inevitable costs from coming to fruition with actions such as:
All of these actions and more are simply attempts to forestall what mathematics tells us is an inevitable process, and one that gets far worse the longer we delay it.
Our problems today are no different than they were in 1929 or 1873. We have once again refused to accept the mathematical inevitability that comes with the system of finance and banking we (and the rest of the world) have chosen for hundreds of years, and instead of enforcing prudent regulation up and down the line, including in our government itself, we have once again tried to game the outcome.
Unfortunately you can't game mathematics - no matter what you decree, 2 + 2 will always equal 4.

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| User Info | Reserve Banking in forum [Market-Ticker] | |||
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Abn0rmal Posts: 9261 Incept: 2009-01-10
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Thank you. I've been waiting for this ticker.
2009-03-13 23:46:28
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Countlupotommaso Posts: 3582 Incept: 2007-10-22
New Jersey
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Thanks. I like this ticker
---------- PINK FLOYD-SHEEP-.Meek and obedient you follow the leader Down well trodden corridors into the valley of steel.What a surprize!A look of terminal shock in your eyes. Now things are really what they seem.No this is not a bad dream
2009-03-13 23:50:02
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Caddis Posts: 376 Incept: 2007-11-08
In a hand basket
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Thanks Karl. Very helpful information.
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2009-03-13 23:54:41
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Musashi Posts: 3835 Incept: 2007-11-06 Behind the Irony Curtain
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It is written clearly enough that almost anyone should be able to understand.
The issue I would have with it is not with the explanation, but with my personal preference of the other system. I do not like to run businesses or anything on debt, if it costs 25 or 30% to borrow so be it. Reason is that with easy and cheap credit lots of people compete with no skin in the game and reduce profits to the point one has to build **** to compete. This is why everyone levers to incredible levels, because excessive competition takes the unit profits of everything manufactured down to nothing. This is why now everyone has massive overcapacity in markets that have only declined 10 or 20%
2009-03-14 00:03:03
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Mtgspy Posts: 6202 Incept: 2007-10-27
Banned
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karl, may be u should append a section WHY people in the most advanced country in the world, USA, not seem to know about this already? This is annoying.
---------- I'll stay away from this one, I'll instead grab my
and watch the pretty fireworks. - KarlSafety is the greatest risk of all, because safety leaves no room for miracles and miracles are the only sure thing in life. - A random black supporting actor. We iz all gonna diiiiiieeeeeeee. - Raingod
2009-03-14 00:03:15
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1lumpsum Posts: 2292 Incept: 2008-02-01
Banned
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An instant Ticker Classic.
2009-03-14 00:05:21
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Kylafoon Posts: 2459 Incept: 2009-02-05
Zombie Portal Lookout
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Swallow they will....
---------- "...But whenever we see things done wildly, but taken tamely, then the State is growing insane..." - Gilbert Keith Chesterton 1910
"I found a flaw in the model that I perceived is the critical functioning structure that defines how the world works." - Alan Greenspan, October 2008
2009-03-14 00:10:36
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Resistance Posts: 6162 Incept: 2008-09-26
Banned
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Sorry Gen, I respectfully disagree.
I submit the arguments presented by Mises, Rothbard and countless other Austrian Economists as evidence to the fraud that is fractional reserve lending. http://mises.org/literature.aspx?action=.... ---------- "Why must political experiments always be in the direction of more government? Why not give the free market a county or even a state or two, and see what it can accomplish?"Murray Rothbard - The Fallacy of the Public Sector
2009-03-14 00:43:04
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Markl Posts: 13 Incept: 2008-12-02
Jersey City, NJ
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Karl,
Excellent post as usual. I do have a few concerns with your explanation: 1) Demand deposits should not be lent out by their very definition. It is fraud to promise everyone you can return their money to them at any time when you simply can't. This applies regardless of how many people and banks are in the system. 2) Banks in a non-fractional reserve system will generate revenue through fees on cash management in demand deposit accounts and will lend out other funds that are lent to them on a non-demand basis (CDs, bonds, etc.) 3) I believe your required interest rates are overstated due to the above considerations. 4) Fractional reserve banking is both inherently inflationary at the time of loan origination as well as ultimately deflationary in the long run, causing booms and busts. 5) People will simply not borrow at excessively high interest rates, so interest rates will not get excessively high. This will be a function of the spread on interest payed to depositors and interest received from debtors. 6) Fractional reserve banking is supported by the government through current regulations. 7) I believe that in a non-fractional reserve banking economy, individuals and firms will be increasingly willing to extend credit to each other, thereby replacing most of the lost liquidity resulting from fractional reserve lending. This will have the result of making each individual economic entity responsible for their own lending decisions. I have a few more, but they are mainly restatements of the comments above applied to different scenarios. Thanks for your hard work. Last modified:
2009-03-14 16:23:09 by markl
Reason: unintentionally mischaracterized KD's position
2009-03-14 00:46:11
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Yatez112 Posts: 165 Incept: 2009-01-20
Louisville
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Thank you very much for this Ticker, Genesis. You have extrapolated exactly what I have in my mind regarding the system. Excellent!
2009-03-14 00:51:40
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Reza30 Posts: 289 Incept: 2009-02-15
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Quote:We have once again refused to accept the mathematical inevitability that comes with the system of finance and banking we (and the rest of the world) have chosen for hundreds of years, and instead of enforcing prudent regulation up and down the line, including in our government itself, we have once again tried to game the outcome. Karl, great ticker as always. I am thinking however that the fractional reserve system is what inevitably caused this mess in the first place. Let's see what the greatest money creator of all, the Federal Reserve, has to say about this: Quote:The fact that banks are required to keep on hand only a fraction of the funds deposited with them is a function of the banking business. Banks borrow funds from their depositors (those with savings) and in turn lend those funds to the banks’ borrowers (those in need of funds). Banks make money by charging borrowers more for a loan (a higher percentage interest rate) than is paid to depositors for use of their money. If banks did not lend out their available funds after meeting their reserve requirements, depositors might have to pay banks to provide safekeeping services for their money. For the economy and the banking system as a whole, the practice of keeping only a fraction of deposits on hand has an important cumulative effect. Referred to as the fractional reserve system, it permits the banking system to create money. Keeping only a "fraction" has turned out to be subject to much abuse: it can cause excessive leverage. If banks are allowed to lend several times of their reserves, say lend out 10, 20, 30 times, then the system becomes inherently unstable (as we have now). The bank can hardly repay the "debt" to depositors (people with real money), because its leveraged loans to "debtors" (people with no real money) has become too great. Any events; a war, an economic crisis, etc. can destroy this house of cards. That is why now we have the lender of last resort: the Federal Reserve itself. The banks became too leveraged and many had to close down when the depositors demanded their money back. In fact, the system has become so leveraged that the Fed itself is essentially insolvent because of all the garbage it has taken onto its balance sheet. Steve Lachance explains this very clearly (and saw this coming in 2005): Quote:Most know debt is a byproduct of the finance-centered US economic model. Few, however, are familiar with how much debt the US credit system creates, let alone the implications. The upshot is financial decision making based on mainstream herding and hesitancy to take essential steps to preserve personal wealth. Last modified:
2009-03-14 01:05:09 by reza30
2009-03-14 01:02:48
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Genesis Posts: 130779 Incept: 2007-06-26
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Quote:1) Demand deposits should not be lent out by their very definition. It is fraud to promise everyone you can return their money to them at any time when you simply can't. This applies regardless of how many people and banks are in the system. Nonsense. Provided my assets purchased with those deposits are good, I can hypothecate them and return your money any time you'd like. As long as I am lending at a rate exceeding that which I borrow, I can do this any time you'd like your money, and you may have it immediately. Quote:
Again, look at the numbers I put forward. The "fees" you speak of would be ridiculous. This is why non-fractional systems are "not found" - there is nothing unlawful about setting up such a bank, but nobody will want to do business with you. Quote:
Again: There is nothing unlawful about a bank that VOLUNTARILY maintains 100% reserves. Why are there none? Quote:
Nope. A loan made for productive investment is not inherently inflationary. And a bust is only deflationary to the extent that attempts are made to stave off recession; said recessions do not necessarily need to be deflationary events, and in fact most are not. The deflationary events come about as a consequence of tampering with soundness. Quote:
People will not borrow at all in a non-reserve system because the rates required to make the numbers work are outrageous. In fact, we have that alongside traditional banks now. They're called "angel investors" and if you've ever talked to one about a deal, you know what sort of terms they want. Those terms SOUND outrageous but in fact they're quite reasonable since they cannot "fan money" through fractional banking. Quote:
Argument by assertion. Evidence please. Quote:
Trade credit will be extended but term credit will not be taken due to the cost. There are those who argue that credit is inherently a bad thing. That's a separate discussion. The point of The Ticker is that fractional banking is NOT fraud (borrowing from someone and lending to a second someone is not a fraudulent act), the assets of a bank meet or exceed its liabilities even if it is fractionally lending, and while there is a cost to fractional banking there are also benefits from fractional banking. Those who wish to argue against it must overcome the fact that nothing prevents someone from setting up and operating a non-fractional bank here and now - other than the fact that you'd have no customers and would shortly go broke attempting to do so. ---------- I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me
Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb. What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
2009-03-14 01:04:42
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Abn0rmal Posts: 9261 Incept: 2009-01-10
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Markl wrote..It is fraud to promise everyone you can return their money to them at any time when you simply can'tBy law, banks in the US do not make that promise. They promise that you can withdraw up to $10,000 in cash at any time. They promise to return amounts greater than $10,000 to you within 7 days.
2009-03-14 01:08:45
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Genesis Posts: 130779 Incept: 2007-06-26
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Quote:Keeping only a "fraction" has turned out to be subject to much abuse: it can cause excessive leverage. If banks are allowed to lend several times of their reserves, say lend out 10, 20, 30 times, then the system becomes inherently unstable (as we have now). The bank can hardly repay the "debt" to depositors (people with real money), because its leveraged loans to "debtors" (people with no real money) has become too great. Any events; a war, an economic crisis, etc. can destroy this house of cards. It CAN cause excessive leverage, but it does not have to. The reason we are here is that when the system runs into the leverage limit a recession must take place; that limit is reached when non-productive investment (that is, either pulled-forward demand or speculation) becomes a significant-enough portion of the total outstanding credit that the law of exponents makes the interest required unsustainable. Since money and credit are fungible this cannot be prevented; the foolish borrowers and the imprudent lenders are the ones who bear the defaults. HOWEVER, when, instead of accepting the inevitability of the mathematics involved in fractional reserve banking government tampers with the reserve ratio and liquidity limits in an attempt to prevent that recession, the required correction can reach into productive investment instead of being confined to the speculators and overlevered consumers. The housing bubble could not have reached its blowoff without the leverage limits being removed from the investment banks in 2004. In fact, the last two years of that boom would not have happened. Even less damage would have accrued had we not passed Gramm-Leach-Bliley and dismantled Glass-Steagall, along with allowing sweep accounts to circumvent reserve requirements. The required correction to restore balance in our economy is more than three times what it should be as a consequence of these abrogations of the safety and soundness proscriptions put in place after The Depression. Had they been left along we would not have had the housing bubble and while we would have had to suffer a recession, it would have been mild - and over - by now. Fractional reserve systems inherently require periods of recession, but as noted there are benefits to go along with the costs. Economic expansion potential is much greater under a fractional system as productive investment can be accomplished on credit in a profitable manner, and this expansion is not inflationary nor subject to destruction during busts, so long as soundness is maintained. ---------- I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me
Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb. What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
2009-03-14 01:14:06
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Etz Posts: 13890 Incept: 2007-06-26
LA
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Joe is a ****ing *******!
He could have built something productive with his $100K. Instead, he puts it in pigmen's hands... **** you merchantilist SOBs! ---------- Legal chicanery and beneficent darkness are the banker's stoutest allies - F.Pecora.
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2009-03-14 01:20:25 by etz3l
2009-03-14 01:19:18
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Lastchance Posts: 1276 Incept: 2008-11-19 Las Vegas
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Genesis
Absolutely beautiful and on point. All I can really add is that no one is forced at gunpoint to open up a bank account. If someone gets a paycheck and perhaps cashes if for a zero fee (they can here in Las Vegas at most casinos), they can do that. They will likley miss out on many opportunities at credit and its benefits, but the point is participating in the banking system seems to be voluntary. ---------- "Now we have a thousand dollar television that has nothing on it" Karl Denniger re: speech 5/24/10
Value = priceless. I can't help it. Too funny.
2009-03-14 01:23:32
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Reza30 Posts: 289 Incept: 2009-02-15
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Quote:It CAN cause excessive leverage, but it does not have to. Karl, thanks for responding to my post directly. I have thought about "leverage" and its harmful side effects in a fractional reserve system, and I too agree that it does not have to be that way. I believe however that there is no other choice given the hole we have dug for ourselves. We simply cannot fund our lifestyles and our budget with sound practices any more--our 1.7 trillion budget deficit this year is proof of that. Creating factories and training workers to generate real wealth would take too long. This system inevitably needs cheating and leverage to create phony wealth. That's how we saw a 600 point rise in the DOW: Pandit's letter... GE news was not as bad as feared... Obama has a new plan... The U.S. financial system has become like an athlete who has found out that good food and hard training will not be enough to get it past human limits. So it has turned to steroids and performance enhancers to get past those limits. I see the current fractional reserve system and the excessive leverage it generates as the drug of choice--it makes the body look powerful on the outside while it is crashing on the inside. Last modified:
2009-03-14 01:34:00 by reza30
2009-03-14 01:29:44
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George_orwell Posts: 17 Incept: 2009-01-02
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Karl, this is a good article on the how fractional reserve banking can actually
LOWER interest rates. For profit banks need to make money. Your examples shows how that is happening in detail. I do have an issue with the underlying assumption that banking has to be a for profit enterprise. That if you want banks to charge low interest rates then we must have fractional reserve banking. Credit Unions are not for profit enterprises. They exist solely for the benefits of its members. They can take on the role of for-profit banks today and they're not out to make money for some "big shareholders". The shareholders are members who open an account and deposit some money. CUs are basically non-profit banks. They must have earnings in order to attract depositors and pay dividends on their member's deposits. But they don't have to "beat estimates" every quarter or do earn large sums of money for some big shareholders. The members own the credit union. Government can and do a say on whether you can operate ANY business. You can't open up a private health insurance company in Sweden. The government has a monopoly on health care. You can't open up a brothel in Florida. Government has decreed that prostitution is illegal. If we restrict banking only to non-profit member owned banks like credit unions, I think fractional reserve banking will not be needed. And because we have removed the profit motive from banks, interest rates will not be high. George Orwell
2009-03-14 01:42:30
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Markl Posts: 13 Incept: 2008-12-02
Jersey City, NJ
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Thanks for the feedback Karl, I'll try to refine some of my points a bit:
I am stating that it is fradulent for a bank to lend demand deposits under the premise that they can be withdrawn in full at any time. In the extremely unlikely event that everyone with a demand deposit account attempts to withdraw their money at the same time, what happens? What happens if your assets purchased with their deposits are not good? What happens if you can't find a buyer immediately? Please note I am only referring to demand deposits and not other accounts. My objection to lending deposits vanishes the instant the "give-it-to-me-now" promise is lifted. I agree, under the premise you set up, the fees would have to be ridiculous. I don't believe the premise you set up would be valid in a non-fractional reserve situation however. As you suggest, the very nature of a non-fractional reserve economy would drastically change our economic landscape. For one, banks would not be nearly as profitable as they are now. Efficiencies would have to be found, such as internet banking, consolidation of facilities, etc. In effect, banking would become more of a utility. Additionally, it is not likely that risk-free or ultra-low risk alternatives such as treasuries, munis, etc would be able to exist at all. Banks do not maintain a 100% reserve ratio because it is not profitable for them to do so under current market conditions, business models, and regulations. I am not one of those who would argue that credit is a bad thing. Two entities who mutually agree to a contract should not be hindered from entering into it so long as they are solely responsible for the results. Expanding the available money supply, however, makes everyone not party to the deal involved as well. Thanks for taking the time to respond, I'm sure this Ticker will be the post of many lost hours of sleep for many.
2009-03-14 02:12:37
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Markl Posts: 13 Incept: 2008-12-02
Jersey City, NJ
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Jbyer -
That doesn't satisfy my argument. What happens on the 7th day if everyone involved requests their demand deposits refunded?
2009-03-14 02:16:58
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Resistance Posts: 6162 Incept: 2008-09-26
Banned
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Quote:Nope. A loan made for productive investment is not inherently inflationary. And a bust is only deflationary to the extent that attempts are made to stave off recession; said recessions do not necessarily need to be deflationary events, and in fact most are not. The deflationary events come about as a consequence of tampering with soundness. Nonsense. The supply of money in your example is increased. Classic inflation. Also, the loan given to Jane increases the demand for houses which will in increase prices for real estate. Modern interpretation of inflation. The repayment of this debt is deflationary, and requires more credit to be extended/taken to offset the deflationary effects of repayment. FRB requires an ever increasing spiral of debt, or it turns deflationary, as we're so painfully witnessing right now. ---------- "Why must political experiments always be in the direction of more government? Why not give the free market a county or even a state or two, and see what it can accomplish?"Murray Rothbard - The Fallacy of the Public Sector
2009-03-14 02:22:06
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Berend Posts: 14 Incept: 2008-10-09
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Karl, Karl, this must be one of your worst tickers. Almost as worst as where you defended that if there are a willing buyer and willing seller, one of these two parties will lose out.
OK, let's start here: <i>So if Joe and Rich both come in at the same time and demand their money, I can sell Jane's mortgage to someone for the $90,000 face value plus a profit, pay both Joe and Rich, and (since I now have no money left in my bank) close my doors. No harm, no foul and no fraud. (In reality if both Joe and Rich come in and want their cash at the same time I'm more likely to borrow against Jane's mortgage than sell it, but the fact remains that so long as Jane's mortgage plus my vault cash exceeds the value of deposit liabilities, the bank is fine - and there is no fraud.)</i> We're not talking about term deposits here, and the promise the bank akes to Joe is fraud. It might, or might not, be able to return his money. Here the arguments why not: 1. If Joe demands his money, the bank can't produce it. You can't sell a house in second so Joe gets his money. That doesn't work. 2. The valuation of the bank might be wrong. If the house is sold, it might have to be sold for far less. I.e. the gold mine down the road has just run out of gold, everyone in town is leaving. House is worthless. 3. The bank can lend money from other banks? But they might not be willing to lend to bank whose assets might not be worth what the bank says they are. So the bank cannot loan the money to give to Joe. And in your example, you're the ONLY bank, so you can't even loan. You might be the biggest bank, and the loan so big no other bank can help you out. So there are many scenarios where this does not work. 4. That's why we have a lender of last resort of course. Banks knew this system was fraudulent, so they created the Federal Reserve Bank to print money in this case. If Joe and Rich come, the Federal Reserve bank prints money, inflating the currency, and the money can be produced. As it is inflated Joe and Rich will soon found out that they can't buy what they used to be able to buy with that money. As long as we're not talking about term deposits (which are completely absent in your story and allow the advantages of fractional banking without the frauds), the promise the bank makes is a fraud. That's the point. And your story proves it over and over again. You make another argument above: <i>The "fees" you speak of would be ridiculous. This is why non-fractional systems are "not found" - there is nothing unlawful about setting up such a bank, but nobody will want to do business with you.</i> Yeah, once Madoff promises steady 15% returns, it's getting kinda hard for other businesses. PS: your "tinfoil hat" language is incendiary, and not helpful if you want a debate.
2009-03-14 02:28:28
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Morthrane Posts: 1036 Incept: 2007-09-06
Peon hell
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Quote:There is nothing unlawful about a bank that VOLUNTARILY maintains 100% reserves. Why are there none? This, in of itself, is an interesting point that illustrates a certain viciousness inherent through using leverage. It is like the prisoner's dilemma, in a sense: the more leverage a bank can employ, the greater their reward in the short term at the expense of banks not using leverage. And like the prisoner's dilemma or some twisted mathematical form of natural selection, the result is that everyone will use as much leverage as they dare or the system will bear-- anything less means being uncompetitive and ultimately dead. Genesis wrote..This means your mortgage rate is about 15%, car loans are 20% interest, credit cards are 30% (and not only when you don't pay either), and on and on and on. Doesn't the other side of the coin of those loans need to be considered? As the interest rate goes higher on asset loans, the presumed price of the assets would decrease in a non-linear relationship. Just 10 minutes playing around with a flexible amortization calculator illustrates the idea: $2000 a month for 360 monthly (30yr) at 5% fixed would allow for roughly $370,000 in principal borrowed; those same terms at 10% fixed would only allow for approximately $230,000 in borrowed principal. Triple the rate to 15% and the borrowed principal is down to around $160,000. This doesn't account for the reduction in money supply either (reduced fractional reserve lending effect, natch), so I would expect that the resultant "instantaneous" cash price of the asset would drop even further-- instead of having $2000 a month for the mortgage, there'd only be $1200 in the budget (30yr 15% fixed and end up with a borrowed principal of a piddly $95,000).
2009-03-14 02:38:52
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Hihoherewego Posts: 931 Incept: 2009-02-25
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Pawn shops will soon be replacing banks as we know it if things continue as they are. Talk about fractional reserves.
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=....
2009-03-14 02:53:24
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and watch the pretty fireworks. - Karl