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| One Good Idea! in forum [Market-Ticker]
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Phirang
Posts: 10157
Incept: 2008-10-25
Flogging a "little person"
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This will kill the BD's... you mean they actually have to engage in legitimate BUSINESS, like something productive???
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I'm not special, and I am not likely to accomplish anything extraordinary in my life. If you are reading this comment, the case is most likely that neither will you. http://www.cracked.com/article_18544_how-the-karate-kid-ruined-modern-world.html
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Brucelee
Posts: 882
Incept: 2007-09-12
detroit, mi
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phirang, you are exactly right and it goes back to Nassim Taleb's point of banks being nothing more than utilities, loans, traditional brokerage ops plus M&A. we'll see if it ever comes to fruition along with any other pseudo-profitable vehicles the pigmen can dream up.
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"There is no way it can be allowed to be more prosperous than those it has failed, and those who pay its salaries." - Bozonian
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Equalitarian
Posts: 39
Incept: 2009-01-20
SW Ohio
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I could not agree with you more. Transparency is essential to an efficient market of any kind.
Why are there participants in the CDS and IRS markets? It seems to me that if the buyers refused to "play" until these markets became transparent, it would not take government regulations to make them transparent.
Is it that these "investments" had such a profit potential that everyone just wanted a piece of the action?
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Genesis
Posts: 130733
Incept: 2007-06-26
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For the broker/dealers, yes.
Some of the people who got robbed don't even realize it occurred until things go wrong. This was DEFINITELY true with many of the interest-rate swaps done with municipal governments.
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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb. What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
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Oxfordrick
Posts: 3171
Incept: 2007-07-09
san diego
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So how does GS get out from under maybe $75 Billion of Level 3 if they can't continue to exploit their "informational edge"?
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Moniteyes
Posts: 2411
Incept: 2008-11-28
ny
Banned
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Swap Transparency is good - bad banks are good - I am moving off the sidelines.
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Berkleyreindeer
Posts: 665
Incept: 2008-07-22
Minneapolis , MN
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oxfordrick: a level 3 asset could be anything they think has value but is almost impossible to value. The one I always think of is a contract to sell electricity from a wind turbine that isn't completed yet. How much is that worth? something, but who knows how much. The problem with this CDS bull**** is that Goldman and MS will immediately try to move all activities offshore, and at the same time come up with some other variation that is not yet regulated. It may never get back to the levels allowed in the bad old days, but they'll try. What I've never figured out is WHY these municipalities enter into contracts that are so complicated they can't even do the math under a few outcomes. Back in 2002 I was pitched a neg am mortgage based on non-metal commodities futures. Are you ****ing kidding me? This ******* mortgage broker actually had the nuts to look me in the eye and say it was a good deal for me...to finance my HOME using coffee and orange juice futures for a low interest rate. I paid for my own cup of coffee and left. Why can't these idiot county commissioners, sewer district officials, and school board investment advisers just get up and leave too?
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It'll get worse. Just wait.
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Genesis
Posts: 130733
Incept: 2007-06-26
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Berkley, in many cases we are now finding out that the county and other officials were in fact bribed.
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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb. What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
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Berkleyreindeer
Posts: 665
Incept: 2008-07-22
Minneapolis , MN
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Is tripling the funding for the FBI part of the stimulous bill?
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It'll get worse. Just wait.
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Phirang
Posts: 10157
Incept: 2008-10-25
Flogging a "little person"
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FBI only has jurisdiction over political enemies and non-pigmen.
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I'm not special, and I am not likely to accomplish anything extraordinary in my life. If you are reading this comment, the case is most likely that neither will you. http://www.cracked.com/article_18544_how-the-karate-kid-ruined-modern-world.html
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Berkleyreindeer
Posts: 665
Incept: 2008-07-22
Minneapolis , MN
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here's a way to end the bull**** in washington We pool our monies and write conditional campaign contribution notes. "These funds are redeemable at any BB&T branch immediately after citibank has filed for bankruptcy or been seized by its regulator." Would this get anyone's attention? Send one to each member of the house and senate who has bank oversight. I'd hate to give Barney money, but he'd have to do something for it first!!!!
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It'll get worse. Just wait.
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Musicmax
Posts: 349
Incept: 2008-09-19
North Carolina
Banned
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Typo alert for incomplete sentence:
"to bar trading in CDS contracts that are not covered by an underlying."
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Genesis
Posts: 130733
Incept: 2007-06-26
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Uh nope! "Underlying" is just that (typically a bond but not necessarily)
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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb. What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
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Wres157
Posts: 16
Incept: 2009-01-23
NY
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"See, today if I call a prime broker (say, Goldman) and ask for a quote on a CDS for Frobozz Company, they can quote me literally anything. They might be able to buy that contract on the market at 400 basis points, but they then quote me 500. Is that a fair price? I don't know. Maybe, maybe not - but the fact that I can't sit in front of my computer and see all the bids and offers in the market like I can with a stock, option, or futures contract allows the dealers to game the market and screw the customer with impunity. The dealers love this, but one of the hallmarks of an efficient market is that pricing information must be made available to all market participants equally."
The traders love it to. The inefficiencies in the market allow trades to create profits off the discrepancies in quotes between dealers. That's a lot less common than it was but having different market makers isn't an inherently bad thing. Also making someone do research and have knowledge of the current market price isn't a bad thing, they shouldn't be trading if they buy something only based off of one quote.
To trade swaps efficiently you need ISDA's with other PB's, and the average person wouldn't have the capital to trade swaps. I agree on your other points though.
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Phirang
Posts: 10157
Incept: 2008-10-25
Flogging a "little person"
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This is EASY MONEY if this bill gets anywhere. It'll ****ing kneecap GS.
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I'm not special, and I am not likely to accomplish anything extraordinary in my life. If you are reading this comment, the case is most likely that neither will you. http://www.cracked.com/article_18544_how-the-karate-kid-ruined-modern-world.html
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Genesis
Posts: 130733
Incept: 2007-06-26
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I agree Wres, but look at what happened to the municipalities that got rammed on the interest-rate swaps. They had no effective means to compare pricing and just simply got ripped off.
This is what happens when pricing is controlled and not transparently displayed where anyone can see it. Its not whether anyone has the capital to trade it - its whether the market participants can effectively cheat by withholding pricing information.
I disagree with allowing "dark pools" for the same reason - if you want to trade it you should be forced to expose your bid, offer, and execution volume so that both volume and (for contracts) O/I can be computed and known by the marketplace.
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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb. What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
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Mrnome201
Posts: 598
Incept: 2007-07-24
NJ
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Quote:The traders love it to. The inefficiencies in the market allow trades to create profits off the discrepancies in quotes between dealers. ****. I'm going to lose 5% of my future P&L. 
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"Listen you ****ers you screwheads, here's a man who would not take it anymore, a man who stood up against the scum, the ****s, the dogs, the filth, the ****" - Taxi Driver
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Ruffcut
Posts: 2903
Incept: 2007-07-07
Mushagain
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A nobel thought, for the future. But what you to do with this current huge pile, still laying on the table? Claims or redemptions or settlements must be requested. Who is taking this in the ass? Good ole trickle down theory, direct to the US treasury. Flashing a small baseball bat, during a gun fight.
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Support locally, and **** off globally!
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Dhalc2
Posts: 133
Incept: 2008-05-16
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Regarding interest rate swaps, are the fraudulent deals coming to light related to plain vanilla interest rate swaps bought by municipalities and corporates? I assume getting hold of vanilla IRS swap prices is not difficult, e.g. by going to different banks for a quote.
I agree with that lack of pricing transparency is the key profit driver in bespoke transactions combining interest rate swaps, options and other derivatives where bank commissions and profits relate directly to how complex the deal can be made to appear, regardless of the fact that combining these derivatives is not particularly difficult. If a client asks a salesman to disclose the models used to price these deals, and pushes hard, he might get a side letter disclosing the model's price inputs (i.e. basic IRS swap prices etc).
Regarding CDS, I know you can get sovereign CDS prices on Bloomberg. Not sure about corporate CDS, or whether you can get bid/offer and all the other pizzazz.
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Genesis
Posts: 130733
Incept: 2007-06-26
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DHalc, yes on the municipals. You can get quotes on a Bloomberg terminal for corporate CDS but the problem is the TRANSPARENCY of those prices suck.
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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb. What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
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Dhalc2
Posts: 133
Incept: 2008-05-16
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Got it.
I think, following on from the last para of this ticker, that the difficult part here is that the people advising US gov. on implementation of new legislation/regulation/clearing house is the investment banks.
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Psquared
Posts: 1876
Incept: 2008-10-11
SE USA
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I remember a short story I read many years ago. It was science fiction, but in a way all of this is turning into some sort of scientific fiction.
The gist of the story was this. An elite group of scientists and engineers were summoned together for a matter of national importance. It was all top secret and they were brought together in a laboratory deep inside a Montana Mountain.
There, they were shown a film of one of their colleagues who had developed an anti-gravity device. The importance of the discovery was breathtaking. The problem was, this scientist had died unexpectedly in a fire and what remained of his notes were cryptic, incomplete and pretty much worthless.
The job was for these elite to organize and replicate the results. They were told the Russians were already working on it as well as the Chinese. Time was of the essence - they had to do it.
For months these men labored trying experiment after experiment. Theoretical math and science were all re-examined. It looked like a dead end because at the end of 6 months they had nothing.
Then one of the scientists had a revelation. The work became feverish and finally the day of the trial experiment came. The object/device they had built was huge -- the size of a house. The one they had witnessed in the movie was only the size of coffee table.
The math was right, the theory only had to be tested. They pressed the button and it worked. The object rose a few inches in the air. It was a breakthrough success. They had really done it.
Afterwards, they were taken to an auditorium where the director of the facility made a startling disclosure. The video of their dead colleague had been faked. There had been no such machine built ... but now there was. They had done the impossible simply on the belief it could be done.
I get the idea that what we need is someone in government to start thinking outside the box. We need a shift in paradigm. It must be first ethical, then social then economic. It can proceed in no other way.
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"Our Constitution is designed only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for any other." ~ John Adams
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Gmak
Posts: 10179
Incept: 2007-07-27
Re-inventing the future at the speed of time.
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So bring all the leaders and pigmen into a room, show them a video of a country where there are no business cycle crashes.... etc..
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Laura
Posts: 3946
Incept: 2008-05-05
Peoples Republic of Florida
Banned
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Psquared Very surreal.
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www.................
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