The Price of Capitalism
The Market Ticker ® - Commentary on The Capital Markets
Posted 2009-01-05 22:06
by Karl Denninger
in Administrative
Ignore this thread
The Price of Capitalism
 

As a followup to my previous Ticker ("There Is No Unicorn That Craps Skittles") I wish to address the myriad people who have written over the years about the "E-Viles" of debt-based monetary systems, which inherently ends up in a call to bar the imposition (or payment) of interest, or at least a ban on private collection of interest.

The problem with this folks is that it won't work.

Let's first define what INTEREST is.

It is the price that you pay to use someone else's capital for a given amount of time and purpose.

That's all.

The riskier that venture is, the more INTEREST you will be charged.

When I set up MCSNet back in the 1990s I shopped for money.  Banks had no desire to deal with me - what I was doing was quite high risk, starting up a new company.  I had some capital, but not enough to do it all on my own - at least I didn't think I did.

So among other people I went to were a handful of what are frequently called "Angel Investors" - that is, people who have a lot of wealth and might be willing to loan you some of it.

All legal, all above-board.

I took each of these people an non-disclosure agreement and a full business plan.  They signed the first and got a copy of the second.

Discussions only got somewhat-serious with one of these people.  He wanted what amounted to the ability to ultimately take control of the company if things didn't go as the business plan projected (and he liked) - a demand that is quite common among people who are solicited in this fashion.

I decided not to go forward with that transaction.

But let there be no mistake - what he proposed to "charge me" was in fact INTEREST, never mind that it wasn't in the form of "8% per year"; it came in the form of an equity position and the right to more if the company "screwed up".

Now what happens if you bar the imposition of interest?

If that ban cannot be worked around (with something similar to what that "Angel Investor" proposed there is an instantaneous shutdown of all lending of capital.

See, the people who have that kind of capital (and believe me, he had - and I presume still does have - a LOT of it) have absolutely no need whatsoever to let any of it out of their control.  They can instead choose to buy a new Maserati every three months for the rest of their life, fly around the world in their LearJet, give the finger to literally everyone and still die rich.  If you try to steal their capital they will just leave the US - people with this kind of money could give a good damn about your idea of "wealth redistribution" - at the point they figure what you're doing is unfair to them, in their sole judgment, they simply pack up and leave.

So either such a plan is a lie or it immediately results in the law making it impossible for people to borrow capital to engage in some transaction that might come with risk of loss.

To counter this problem (that of private capital instantly being withdrawn from where they would formerly lend it) most of these proposals either "redirect" interest into the government as a "citizens dividend" or in some other way put it in control of government.

That's even worse, because you have now put CONTROL of capital into the sole hands of the government.

Once control of capital has passed to government you have IN EFFECT created Communism because control of capital is in fact control of ALL LEGAL COMMERCE.

So let's stop right here and dispose of all such claimed "solutions" and "plans" as what they are - the work of Satan in the name of Karl Marx.

If you trade or invest in the markets in any form you cannot support such a plan - no matter how it is couched.  It is absolutely antithetical to the premise of capitalism - no matter what sort of shroud (more succinctly - fraud) someone couches it in.

As such I am simply not going to entertain such garbage on my forum no matter what sort of fishpaper it is wrapped in, because Tickerforum (and The Market Ticker) is expressly a place where we talk about The Capital Markets in a Capitalist economic system within a Representative Republican Government.

If that isn't your thing, then neither The Market Ticker or Tickerforum is appropriate as a place to discuss whatever it is you're trying to sell (and make no mistake, that's exactly you're trying to do!)

With that having been dispensed with, we can now determine the price of Capitalism that we must endure in order to have:

  1. Private property rights, including the right to own and control capital that you acquired through lawful means, including loaning it to other people on terms as you may determine in your sole authority.
  2. The inevitable fact that in such a system credit is always issued at interest, and that any attempt to not do so violates #1 and thus is antithetical to free-market capitalism.
  3. The fact that debt (and thus interest) is inherently an exponential function, yet we live in a linear world where resources are finite.
  4. The fact that all people who engage in commerce (whether its lending capital, making something, or consuming) do so with a profit motive - that is, to better their life.

Let's look at what happens as a natural and inescapable outcome of these four basic foundational facts in a Capitalist system:

Year

Growth (7%)
(Economy)

Interest (10%)
(Profit)

1

1.07

1.10

2

1.145

1.21

3

1.225

1.331

4

1.31

1.464

5

1.403

1.61

10

1.967

2.593

20

3.87

6.727

Remember, everyone seeks a profit.  Therefore, those who loan capital out will demand some price above the "risk free" return that can be obtained by simply sitting in the economy and lapping up the growth.

Nobody will take an intentional loss as long as there are alternatives, and unless you steal people's property, there are!

Therefore, there will always be a "spread". 

But look at what happens.  In the first year, the "spread" between the two - the difference between the economic outcome and the lending price - is 3%.  But by the fifth year that spread has grown to 21% and is accelerating rapidly - 21% is much higher than 3 x 5, or 15%.

In 10 years the spread is much worse - 63% instead of the "expected" 30%, and in 20 years its horrifying - 286%!

Why?

Because both functions are exponents (compound functions) and so long as people seek a profit it will always cost more to borrow capital than the rate of growth in the economy, as you must induce them to take a risk.

Left alone the overhang of debt will always "run away" and destroy the economic and monetary systems.

Therefore if we are to avoid a complete collapse of the economic and monetary systems there must be times when the "overhang" of bad debt defaults, lest it grow so much that nobody can make the payments and the economy is choked off.

That is exactly what has happened because our government intentionally prevented the defaults that were NECESSARY in 2000-2003 to restore balance between these two functions.

Now the pain is worse, and as you can see above, the longer you try to put it off the worse it gets.  It's bad now (about 10 years in); if we try to "kick the can" for another 10 years it will be catastrophic.

This is the fallacy of those who say we "must prevent foreclosures", "increase lending", and "have a soft landing", including all of the idiots in Washington DC and on CNBC.

Baloney!  If you've got bad debt out there you want to default it and you want to do it now, because the longer you wait - the more you kick the can - the worse the economic pain will be.  The math guarantees this will be the case and there is absolutely nothing you can do to prevent or change it.

The bottom line is that you must accept that from time to time "liquidation events" - that is, the forcing of excess credit, which will always happen, into the open where it must default, bankrupting both creditors and debtors, are an inherent and necessary part of all capitalist economic systems.

Put in one sentence without explanation it reads:

“There is no means of avoiding the final collapse of a boom brought about by credit (debt) expansion. The alternative is only whether the crisis should come sooner as the result of a voluntary abandonment of further credit (debt) expansion, or later as a final and total catastrophe of the currency system involved.” Ludwig von Mises

Mr. Mises didn't explain why, nor did he explain why such liquidation events are not only expected but are necessary in any capitalist system.  He should have, but perhaps he assumed that his readers understood mathematics.

He gave our leaders, and the public, too much credit.

In fact, we need resort to nothing other than the fundamental truth regarding exponential functions when operating within the boundaries of a fixed system. 

It is not possible to have a boom without a bust, and the bust must not fall under attempts to contain or avoid it, but rather allowed to run its course, or it is inevitable that it will become a bigger and more painful bust.

This is a fundamental truth that is a part of all capitalist economic systems where private ownership of property (which inherently includes capital) is recognized.

This not only cannot be avoided it must not be tampered with, because the mathematical facts of exponents (go look at that table up above again) means that each and every time one tries to interfere with these "liquidation events" by bailing out either the borrowers or lenders the time under which compounding of the damage occurs increases and thus the total damage to the economy must and does expand at this very same exponential rate

It simply cannot be otherwise.

To restate this in simpler terms:

  1. The fact that debt and interest are exponential functions means that when a business failure occurs the sooner we force its recognition the less damage the economy takes overall.  Only liquidation of bad debt stops it from accruing damage to both the borrower and lender, and thus the economy.
  2. Because all businesspeople in a capitalist system seek a profit, those who lend capital will always charge more than they believe will be the risk-free (that is, the aggregate GDP growth) rate of return.
  3. GDP growth is also exponential (that is, compounded.)
  4. The spread between aggregate output and debt overhang will, over time, always widen due to the inherent exponential nature of both interest and growth, and as it does it places pressure on all businesses as the "debt overhang" presses on the economy at a rapidly-increasing rate; this cycle is only interrupted by liquidating the bad debt.

Because of 1-4 delaying the liquidation of bad debt is ALWAYS the wrong thing to do in each and every case because the math guarantees that the damage you take today is always less than the damage you will take tomorrow by kicking the can down the road.

This is mathematics folks, not politics.  The mathematical facts do not care if you're Republican, Democrat or Martian.  Anywhere and everywhere there is a capitalist economic system where people have recognized the right to own, control and direct the use of private property with the intention of making a profit such a cycle is inevitable and interference with liquidation of "bad bets" always results in more severe economic damage to the system as a whole.

We must stop bailing people out, rescind the existing bailouts, and force the bad debt - all of it - into the open where it will default, because the damage we take from doing so today is less than that which INEVITABLY will occur if we continue to try to avoid or delay the liquidation events.

Oh, and if you think its bad with all the private business and banks going "boom", consider what happens if we transfer all of the bad debt to The Federal Reserve and then it defaults there as the inevitable reality of exponents comes home to roost in the center of our monetary system!

PS: Whoever wrote The Old Testament (whether you believe it was God or man) understood this, which is why "Jubilee" - that is, the wiping of all debt by decree on specified intervals - was written into the Torah.  They understood that only such an act halted the exponential "runaway" in the economy and thus prevented the ruin of the economy and the people.  Is it not amusing that we claim to be "so advanced" and yet not one person in 100 in this country seems to understand that which an ancient people, living in a time before electricity, automobiles, The Internet and even running water had figured out exponents - but the huge majority of our citizens haven't?  And you wonder why I rant and rave about our so-called "education" system and "teachers"?

Discussion below (registration required to post)
 

Main Navigation
Full-Text Search & Archives
Archive Access
Get Adobe Flash player





Blogtalk 3:30 CT Mondays
Items To Look At


Discuss The Capital Markets along with daily technical analysis with our Gold Donor program.

Where We Are, Where We're Heading (2013) - The annual 2013 Ticker

Links and Blogroll
Our policy on reciprocal links: Send us an email with your information and why you think your blog or news site would make a good addition - in most cases reciprocal link requests will be granted.
Seeking Alpha Certified
Legal Disclaimer

The content on this site is provided without any warranty, express or implied. All opinions expressed on this site are those of the author and may contain errors or omissions.

NO MATERIAL HERE CONSTITUTES "INVESTMENT ADVICE" NOR IS IT A RECOMMENDATION TO BUY OR SELL ANY FINANCIAL INSTRUMENT, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO STOCKS, OPTIONS, BONDS OR FUTURES.

The author may have a position in any company or security mentioned herein. Actions you undertake as a consequence of any analysis, opinion or advertisement on this site are your sole responsibility.

Looking for "The Best of Market Ticker"? Check out
Ticker Classics.

Visit the forum to discuss this and other investing-related topics; see the FAQ on the forum for information about Gold Donor status including access to our technical analysis video server.

Market charts, when present, used with permission of TD Ameritrade/ThinkOrSwim Inc. Neither TD Ameritrade or ThinkOrSwim have reviewed, approved or disapproved any content herein.

Market Ticker content may be reproduced or excerpted online provided full attribution is given and the original article source is linked to. Please contact Karl Denninger for reprint permission in other media.

Submissions may be sent "over the transom" to The Editor at any time. To be considered for publication your submission must include full and correct contact information and be related to an economic or political matter of the day. All submissions become the property of The Market Ticker.

Leads on stories of current economic and political interest are always welcome. Our fax tip line is 850-897-9364; please include contact information with your transmission.

 
Comments.......
User: Not logged on
Login Register Top Blog Top Blog Topics FAQ
Showing Page 1 of 5  First12345Last
User Info The Price of Capitalism in forum [Market-Ticker]
Curbyourrisk
Posts: 3592
Incept: 2008-08-19

Farmingdale, NY
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Eco-porn so early in the morning......gotta love it.

----------
Time is up.

I hate to burst your bubble, but there is no Santa Claus, the tooth fairy does not exist and American justice does not involve the courts.
Aliveh
Posts: 4043
Incept: 2008-01-18
Gold
Los Angeles
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Genius.

Should be required reading for everyone.
Genesis
Posts: 130731
Incept: 2007-06-26
Admin A True American Patriot!
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Guess what - a year ago I put a nearly-identical table into "Our Mortgage Mess" - the white paper that was faxed to EVERY REP AND SENATOR in Congress.

The math is never wrong.

----------
I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me
Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb.
What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
Fugitivekind
Posts: 801
Incept: 2007-08-20
Green A True American Patriot!
Boston
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
It's sad that this ticker is needed for some tickerforum members.

----------
"I refuse to leave our children with a debt they cannot repay, and that means taking responsibility right now, in this administration, for getting our spending under control."
Barack Obama, Feb. 29, 2009
Beausam
Posts: 549
Incept: 2008-12-04

Florida
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Great Ticker as usual Gen. thanks

----------
The function of the Government is to separate the peasants from their money by pretending to fail.....Reinhardt
Stonedog
Posts: 2080
Incept: 2008-05-29
Green A True American Patriot!
New Jersey
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Gen - unfortunately our CONgress critters believe that if reality conflicts with their political positions/posturing they can make reality conform with their views.

In many ways this is exactly what the USSR tried to do in terms of its economic planning. Not that we're that bad. YET

----------
"I would characterize my professional disdain as more of a professional contempt for their [Central Banker, Banker and politician] economic and financial policies, priorities, presumptions and prescriptions." - Lauren Lyster on Capital Account for Friday June 16, 2012

"All the stimulus, the bailouts, the quantit
Mtgspy
Posts: 6202
Incept: 2007-10-27
Green

Banned
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Karl, compounding is compounding. But I just want to remind you of what Kennedy said:

“The problems of the world cannot possibly be solved by skeptics or cynics whose horizons are limited by the obvious realities. We need people who can dream of things that never were.”

----------
I'll stay away from this one, I'll instead grab my smiley and watch the pretty fireworks. - Karl
Safety is the greatest risk of all, because safety leaves no room for miracles and miracles are the only sure thing in life. - A random black supporting actor.
We iz all gonna diiiiiieeeeeeee. - Raingod
Genesis
Posts: 130731
Incept: 2007-06-26
Admin A True American Patriot!
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Oh I agree with that.

But you can't solve things by dreaming of that which violates the laws of mathematics either. When you do that it really is just a dream.

----------
I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me
Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb.
What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
Mtgspy
Posts: 6202
Incept: 2007-10-27
Green

Banned
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
My dream involves kicking a can.

----------
I'll stay away from this one, I'll instead grab my smiley and watch the pretty fireworks. - Karl
Safety is the greatest risk of all, because safety leaves no room for miracles and miracles are the only sure thing in life. - A random black supporting actor.
We iz all gonna diiiiiieeeeeeee. - Raingod
Gmak
Posts: 10179
Incept: 2007-07-27
Green
Re-inventing the future at the speed of time.
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
smiley
Genesis
Posts: 130731
Incept: 2007-06-26
Admin A True American Patriot!
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Its full of cement.

----------
I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me
Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb.
What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
Lunatic_fringe
Posts: 9107
Incept: 2007-06-26
Green
Location: Terra Firma
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Fun With Exponents...

If you were to take a sheet of paper and fold it over on itself 50 times, how thick would the paper be after the final folding?

Answer: The paper would be the same thickness as the distance between the earth and the sun.

This is an example of exponential growth from "The Tipping Point". Fun stuff, eh?
Zenthunder
Posts: 6827
Incept: 2007-10-11
Green
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Nice - I have always felt that the bad has to come with the good but thats the best explanation of that 'feeling' I have yet seen. Thanks Karl.

Someone told me recently that in ancient times the Jewish people ( I think?) had a thing where every 50 years all debt was wiped off the records. Sounds to me like this problem has been around a loooong time...

----------
*** FRAUD is NOT a business model.
HOPE is not a business plan!

Margincalltime
Posts: 1025
Incept: 2008-04-01
Green
NJ
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
good ticker- might be also useful to throw another table in there with GDP declining or growing at a slower rate over time vs. debt increasing dramatically and despite a lower interest rate the gap also widening dramatically which would be appropriate for our current cirumstances
Genesis
Posts: 130731
Incept: 2007-06-26
Admin A True American Patriot!
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Margin, look at the table that is in there.

A lender simply asking for 3% over the rate of growth (a VERY SMALL profit) causes the dislocation over 20 years that's evident in the table.

How many businesses will operate on a 3% net margin? Certainly not many, eh? If you have a million dollars a 3% spread only returns you $30,000 a year!

Assuming zero inflation, is that a particularly-good living? Uh, no.

In reality actual spreads are typically much higher than this, and with good reason (its called the profit motive!), and thus the DAMAGE is much higher over time.

There is no escaping the law of exponents.

----------
I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me
Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb.
What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
Margincalltime
Posts: 1025
Incept: 2008-04-01
Green
NJ
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
You missed my point. I meant the US government. If you have falling GDP (less tax revenue), dramatic increase in debt burden, despite a lower interest rate (but still positive on long end), you're going to have that dislocation sooner rather than later.

On your point, given falling GDP and weaker business conditions, you have a higher spread (particularly for new businesses IF they can get credit in the first place), thus you also have problems and sooner than many realize.

We are talking about the same thing, just suggesting one more table to illustrate it for the impaired. The table that's in there illustrates the point clearly for exponents, but what I'm suggesting is given the current conditions with likely weak/negative growth, we have even less time on our side.
Genesis
Posts: 130731
Incept: 2007-06-26
Admin A True American Patriot!
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
If you don't get the inevitability of it all with the table that's already there you're hopeless.

----------
I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me
Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb.
What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
Etz
Posts: 13890
Incept: 2007-06-26
Silver
LA
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
The ideal leader is a dreamer with fractured toes smiley

----------
Legal chicanery and beneficent darkness are the banker's stoutest allies - F.Pecora.

1lumpsum
Posts: 2292
Incept: 2008-02-01
Green

Banned
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Wow! Great ticker! There are a lot of pinko commies out there, most don't even know that they are. I've called them out on it, saying to them "what your proposing be done is Communist!" They'll say "no it's not", but inherently it is. What's worse then that is the few who do know that what they are proposing is Communist. Makes me think of Ronald Reagan- "A communist is someone who has read Marx. An anticommunist is someone who understands Marx.".
I have a few questions: Can we have a Capitalist system without debt based money? Can we have a Capitalist system without fractional reserve banking? I think the answers are Yes and No, but I am not sure.

Genesis
Posts: 130731
Incept: 2007-06-26
Admin A True American Patriot!
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Quote:
I have a few questions: Can we have a Capitalist system without debt based money?

Yes, in theory. The problem with TRUE non-debt-based money is that there is absolutely NOTHING to prevent its infinite debasement. With debt-based money the price of debasement is that the people who issue/control it wind up with something that's worthless (the debt.) With non-debt-based money there is literally no boundary against that.

If you try to base it on some sort of commodity then its still debt-based - it just doesn't LOOK debt-based (the "debt" is in the form of whatever commodity you must acquire to back it - it just doesn't compound interest.)

Quote:
Can we have a Capitalist system without fractional researve banking? I think the answers are Yes and No, but I am not sure.

Is it possible? Yes.

Is it likely to work? No, because without fractional reserves you must accurately match monetary supply and output or you get instantaneous and punishing inflation or deflation any time there is a mismatch between monetary supply and output. Since it is extremely difficult to accurately measure output you wind up with a dynamically-unstable system.

It may be possible to compensate for this, but its hella-hard if ****ups destroy your economy.

----------
I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me
Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb.
What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
Statusquojoe
Posts: 2784
Incept: 2008-11-20
Green A True American Patriot!
Land of the fees Home of the slaves.
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Great Ticker once again Karl.

It is imperative that people (general public) understand that the idea of economic freedom also means the freedom to fail. Failure is such a negative connotation that I think people repress this idea - that allowing failure ensures freedom and prosperity (even eventually). Doublespeak has twisted understanding of the masses, and sometimes I think even that of our representative leaders for if it hasn't then I have to assume that even while understanding they choose to act in opposition to common sense.

----------
There are so many rules no one knows which rules to follow. The only sure rule is more rules will follow. SQJ.
Genesis
Posts: 130731
Incept: 2007-06-26
Admin A True American Patriot!
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Status, its not just "freedom to fail", its the inevitable nature of not only signficant failures but also that there can be no "super" status that is protected from it, because as soon as that happens debt naturally concentrates there and this in turn results in what we're seeing now.

----------
I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me
Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb.
What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
Tesla
Posts: 15541
Incept: 2008-04-03
Green A True American Patriot!
State of Disbelief
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Fractional reserve banking would not be a problem in a free market economy IF the .gov would stay out of the equation.

If banks AND depositors were "free to fail", then the leverage would be contained to what each side can tolerate. A highly-leveraged bank would only attract those depositors who had a high tolerance for risk. Conversely, a low-risk bank would attract those with only a tolerance for the same.

----------
"Even a dog knows the difference between being stumbled over and being kicked." -Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes

"Neither the wisest Constitution nor the wisest laws will secure the liberty and happiness of a people whose manners are universally corrupt." -Samuel Adams
Margincalltime
Posts: 1025
Incept: 2008-04-01
Green
NJ
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Tesla- Mish has been preaching this exact point for a while. I doubt it will ever happen though.

No one wants to fail, but obviously it should be inevitable and as KD said an inherent part of capitalism. This aversion to failure is also perpetrated by the media as everyone wants to be like the people they see on TV and will go to any lengths to get it. Just look at the video of Faber on Bloomberg. After going through his analysis, he's then asked what do we tell the laid off auto worker in Detroit. Um, that he was in the wrong line of work and needs to "re-skill" and that the Union free lunch (literally in some cases, just see the Union boss video) is now over and he now needs to be and his company needs to be competitive with other companies from other countries?

Login Register Top Blog Top Blog Topics FAQ
Showing Page 1 of 5  First12345Last